Would you trade.....(Domestic Spies)

[VaSteve]

I was reading this interesting article on Britain's MI-5. This is the unit that is allowed to spy within the UK borders on UK citizens. They have been credited with stopping some terroristic plots.

Would you be willing to trade a repeal of some or all of the Patriot Act for this type of arrangement in the US?

Discuss.

[concentric]

How is the FBI different?

[widebody911]

Originally posted by concentric
How is the FBI different?

Doesn't have a cool name.

[VaSteve]

The FBI is supposedly only for investigations *after* a crime has occured. MI-5 is proactive and actually infiltrates suspect organizations and dirupts them. Because of the charter, they rarely testify. It's all very secretive.

The NSA is only for spying outside out borders.

Anyone? Anyone have an opinion? All I know is what I read in the WSJ yesterday. I'm curious for more opinions. (Naturally, the trade scenario I outlined above is my own idea).

[island911]

I recently had a long discusion with a "Homeland security agent", about this. It got rather heated too.

Anyway, I was surprised at how limited they are right now.

I do think that those limits are for the best. Sure it will have some bad consequences. .. .but so would too easy access to where people live. I'm thinking like when the Clintons used the FBI et al, to get "Files" on their competition . . .treating them as enemies.

Balance of power is key. (cost less too)

[stomachmonkey]

No way! We are far to reactionary in this country. During WWII we locked up American Citizens because of their Japanese lineage. Why? They were easy to spot. Did we round up everyone of German derivation? No. Why? They looked like everyone else.

After Oklahoma City did we scrutinize every 20-30 year old white male that had served in our military? No.

After 9/11 even liberals that I know thought profiling of middle easterners was a good thing. Why? Most of them have never been pulled over for being white. I've been pulled over for nothing more than being a minority.

And please don't use the argument that we were attacked by middle easterners so it's OK to profile them, that they represent a clear and present danger. A couple do, 99% of them don't.

If they were all potential terrorists then instead of spending billions of dollars and wasting the lives of my fellow Americans "liberating" Afghanistan and Iraq we should have just dropped a couple of nukes on the region and not looked back.

After all aren't we over there to free them from the oppresive regimes of the Taliban and Saddam? Regimes that among other things practiced just this sort of thing and used it in a way that was not in the best interest of its citizens?

And if you think that could never happen here you are dreaming. It does not happen overnight, it happens one little step at a time.

As far as the UK is concerned they could have eliminated their terror threat by getting out of Ireland.

Scott

[john70t]

Umm, lemme see.....
1) Since the 80s, a few, some, if not all phone conversations have gone through supercomputers with the Eshelon logic supercomputers. (no wiretape required)

2) A few, some, if not all web usage (including mail, searches and forums) have gone through the Carnivore logic system, adding to individual profilling

3) The Pariot act allows searching library usage, entering and searing unoccupied home without needing a warrent or just cause

4) All cell phones are now required to have full-time GPS, tracking the user and may or may not be remotely activated making them microphones/cameras

5) all GM cars are equipped with On-star, activated or not, allowing the company employees to monitor the communication, position/speed of vehicle, unlock doors at will, etc

6) many if not all personal items(program headed by China-loving Wallmart) will soon be equipped with RF tags instead of register bar code labels, so a persons entire belongings at the time can be recorded by any remote transeiver (i.e.:if you dine next to a drug dealer in a resteraunt, you may have your name highlighted by the powers-that-be.)

There are probably more, but the issue is a matter of personal privacy, personal-property, and privatization.

Having info in the hands of the highest level of government doesn't bother me TOOO much(said unenthusiastically), as long as it's used only, and only, when necessary. But who is the judge of that?
It's when goverment programs are outsourced, and the walk-in junky hiree propped up in front of a monitor in some foreign country has acess to the same information the highest levels of the NSA does....that's when I start to get worried.


Technology is advancing(in every aspect) at an exponential level, but the animal part of humans is far from permanently repressed and probably never will be. Even the leader of the worlds strongest nuclear superpower can get a little kinki or break a toe after a bad golf shot.
The common language will, and will always, be seashells, gold, paper money, credit, and then what?........a ratio of dedicated brainpower?

We've got a long way to go. Just think, 100 years ago there were no movies, no cars, no refridgerators, little medicine, etc...etc...

[mikester]

No, read my signature.

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" I will not be bullied as the masses have been into cowering in my closet floor by the politicians afraid to live for the threat of terrorism.

Instead I will live my life and that is all there is too it.

My freedom and liberty are just that - mine and not for the government to take away and I will vote my peace and fight the fight against any person seeking office to take those rights as defined in the Constitution to take them away.

Unfortunately Privacy is not defined as a right in the Constitution and we suffer because of it.