Liberal Hypocrisy

[A Quiet Boom]

I've been reading and posting here a lot on the political stuff as well as doing my own research on the issues and I find a few things rather interesting.

First, the libs complain about our involvement in Iraq now that no stockpiles of WMD has been found yet they forget about the hundreds of thousands of people Saddam and his Baathists murdered while at the same time they criticize that we aren't doing enough for the problem in the Sudan. Forget the WMD justification, wasn't the mass murder of Iraqis enough of a reason? And if not then why should we go into the Sudan?

Second, Bush gets criticized for "taking his eye off the ball" by "diverting" troops to Iraq instead of finding Bin Laden, saying we can't fight a multi-theater war or that Iraq is not part of the war on terror. These same libs however suggest we need to do more about Iran and N. Korea. Do they want us to attack those countries? Have they considered that the effort in Iraq might become a deterent to state-sponsored terror? It worked for Libya.

Third, Kerry's brilliant idea of sending MORE troops to Iraq for the "wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time", yeah that's certain to get the recruitment rate up.

Fourth, They accused Bush of potentially reinstating the draft in a second term (something a President cannot do) while the bill to do just that was SPONSORED by two democrats in the house and was recently voted down.

I could go on for hours with more of this but I think I've made my point. They'll say or do whatever they have to to get there guy elected.

My liberal friend asked me tonight if I am better of now than I was four years ago, he knows I am not. My wife lost her job due to calling off and tardiness, we learned later that she has some serious psychatric issues to deal with that caused the job loss. Certainly not Bush's fault. The fact is four years ago my salary couldn't have covered our bills, let alone toys. In four years my income has gone up dramtically, to the point that if my wife still had her job we'd be way better off. Things are so much better for me that I bought my first new vehicle ever (the Ranger) and we are planning for a new house once my wife is ready to work again. He tells me how bad the economy is on the same day I found out that my companies growth this fiscal year was 20%, many others in my industry report similar gains. He tells me the tax cuts were a ruse and fiscally irreponsible when he runs an under the table business and pays next to nothing in the way of income tax, if tax cuts are so bad why doesn't he write the government a nice fat check? He brings me every liberal book on the planet yet won't even consider reading even a moderate conservative book for balance. His thought process seems to be "anybody but Bush" and he doesn't believe anything I tell him about his boy Kerry yet he calls me ignorant for supporting Bush? Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things I don't like about Bush and I might have considered a strong moderate to conservative Democrat for President but none of the candidates where even close.

I'm afraid my friend's fanaticism is going to destroy a 16 year friendship because I'm sick of hearing all his far left BS about how bad Bush is when he can't give me ONE good reason to vote for Kerry other than the fact that he's not Bush.

I can't wait for November 3rd....

[fintstone]

Well Christian,,,it sounds like you have had some tough times recently where you could have easily quit...or blamed someone...or everyone else...Little wonder you and your wife are conservatives. You could never be a liberal with that type attitude. Congrats on your current success.
Just keep your distance from your friend till after the election...give him time...most liberals eventually grow up.

[RANDY P]

I've written off the intellectual elite zealots as victims of modern fashion. Only thing that makes sense about liberals or OOPS as they're now calling themselves "progressives" Focus group tested and "hip"

See for yourself:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/06/thu/index.html

With such marketing research like that and endorsements from P Diddy Al Franken, MIchael Moore and whatever other idiot famous pop celebrity is hip at the moment how can you go wrong?

After all, for a lot of 'em is all about rebellion. Plain and simple..

rjp

[A Quiet Boom]

fintsone,

Yeah, I used to be a moderate conservative but this election is moving me further to the right. I just see so much babble and so little substance from the other side. And you're right, I place blame where it belongs and if that means on myself then so it is. Funny in 16 years of friendship my friend has NEVER admited he was wrong yet is very quick to point out the faults in others. I've faced a lot of adversity in my adult life, a strong contrast to the relatively easy upbringing I had. I've beaten back the self-medication of alcoholism for panic disorder and fixed most of the screw ups that addiction caused. Found myself nearly penniless and on disability due to that illness yet pulled it together and went ot culinary school. I quit school early to take what I thought would be the dream job of executive chef only to have the dream fall apart when the ownership fell apart. Found a new but lower paying job at a restaurant in need of my professional help and we had our biggest year ever under my leadership in the kitchen until the landlord decided to sell the property to condo developers. During this time my then fiancee (now wife) got pregnant and we were in no shape to be parents. Gave up my drag car for my daughter and never looked back. Then I got a part time position doing maintenance for my now brother-in-law (married to my wife's sister). That was 6 years ago, now I'm in charge of product development under my brother-in-law's semi-retired father who founded the company and aquired two patents with another pending. Learned to weld, machine and design machinery and test instruments by reading and doing. I also oversee all of our equipment including a Windows 2000 domain running on a dual CPU server I built from ebay parts. I only say this to point out an important state of mind. I go through life asking myself how I can do better, what can I learn today? etc. I don't know any liberals with an attitude like mine but I know several conservatives that do.

Sometimes I think I should write a book, "How addiction and adversity saved my life"

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by A Quiet Boom

Second, Bush gets criticized for "taking his eye off the ball" by "diverting" troops to Iraq instead of finding Bin Laden, saying we can't fight a multi-theater war ...

Don't forget -- liberals have always been into a smaller military. Clinton half-crippled our military; the full effects of his damage are really beginning to be felt. So ... if we're supposed to be capable of a multi-theater war, which military should we use to fight it? The "1.5 Global Conflicts" doctrine appeared during the Clinton Era, you see.

(sigh) In all honesty, conservatives can be just as bad. My parents are blindly conservative, for example. They're not Mullholland-psycho, but they're pretty far out, and totally closed towards left-leaning opinions. It's kind of sad; I agree with them on most of politics, but for often largely different reasons. Weird.

On your dissolving friendship -- I have an idea what that's like. I was dating a girl about a year ago, fairly far down the path towards buying a nice ring. I put my promising Navy career on the line, in fact, in order to ensure I could stay in the area to promote a good relationship. ... Watching "Bowling for Columbine" opened my eyes to the fact that we ... had some political differences. She believed MM seriously enough to make "red ufo" seem pretty sane. It just went downhill from there.

(sigh) Oh, well.

Dan

[djmcmath]

Christian -- just read your "life history" post. That's awesome, in a "Good on ya for surviving all that" sort of way. I'm impressed that you can keep your chin up, and keep on going.

Dan

[A Quiet Boom]

Originally posted by djmcmath


(sigh) In all honesty, conservatives can be just as bad.

Dan

Very true, it just seems like the libs are worse than ever. As for the ex-GF good thing you found out when you did,

[fintstone]

It is amazing how deep a hole one can dig themselves out of when they acknowledge that they are empowered to do so...and work hard, take a few calculated risks, and are willing to make some sacrifices.

I'll never understand why the liberals seeem to think it is just luck.

[A Quiet Boom]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Christian -- just read your "life history" post. That's awesome, in a "Good on ya for surviving all that" sort of way. I'm impressed that you can keep your chin up, and keep on going.

Dan

Dan,

Cool name BTW, my middle name is Daniel. I keep my chin up through the inspiration of others. That's one thing I like about GW, on numerous occasions he's been reported as saying how the victims of 9/11, the hurricanes, and wounded soldiers inspire him. There is something about facing tough times that brings out the best or the worst in people, I'm thankful it brought out my best. I got my nickname for my attitude, I've told the story before but I'll tell it again anyway. When I used to drag race I had a bad habit of blowing up very expensive motors, I'd just push the car on the trailer and come back a few weeks later with a better version of the motor I had ruined. A friend of mine pointed out that I never seemed to get mad or upset, boom goes the motor and you quietly go home and make it better. Somehow he called me "a quiet boom" and it just stuck, I even used it as my screen name when I played Unreal Tournament online. I bought the P-car, dropped the video games and found this place, I couldn't be happier. Well maybe I can, seems NorthCoastCab and Pete Brown have conspired to infect me with the track bug after getting me a few laps around Mid-Ohio last week with Paul Hamm and his race prepped M3. I'm told he runs 1:39's, I thought I was a good driver BEFORE that ride, after I didn't feel qualified to drive my truck around the parking lot LOL Coming in '05 A Quiet Boom will be back on a race track, only this time it'll last more than 10 seconds. My wife knows me perfectly, one look at my face when I got home and she knew I'd be racing next year. Even better she want's me to do it. I think she new when she married me I'd always have a mistress with four wheels.

[cegerer]

I only say this to point out an important state of mind. I go through life asking myself how I can do better, what can I learn today? etc.

Great story. Congratulations. Liberals would have written you off when you were at your lowest. But they would have "helped" you by signing you up for a government rehab program and throwing government checks at you so you could subsist at the lowest levels of society - a sure-fire receipe for going back to the bottle.

The core difference between conservatives and libs is optimism vs. pessimism. Every lib I've ever known walks around in a neverending fog of pessimism. It must be a sad way to live life in the greatest country in the world.

[Superman]

Yeah, those liberals are insane. They all think they're so superior, but in reality they're just a bunch of gullible, misguided people. I wonder if we should just tell them that their conclusions are all wrong. Naw, they're just too stupid or too insane or something, to even recognize truth when they see it.

[Superman]

Okay sarcasm aside, one of the things I find truly head-shaking is this optimism/pessimism thing. Sure, we're critical of your president's decisions and agenda. We think he's made some HUGE mistakes. But....

I love America. Great country. And I think America has GREAT untapped potential. Indeed, one of the really exciting things about living at this moment in history is that, for the first time in humankind, we're probably capable of eradicating stuff like hunger. I think that, as well as America has performed, it has MUCH more potential.

I noticed that Big Dick's closing remarks were basically "Be afraid. Be very afraid. Be so afraid, that you are scared to make a change." Conversely, Edwards closing remarks were "Dubya is selling America short. We're capable of MUCH more, and John Kerry hopes for an opportunity to strut our stuff and show America, and the world what we're really made of and what's possible."

So, I frankly get the opposite impression. I think the libs love America more, and are more optimistic, than the cons.

[MichiganMat]

1. Quiet your bleeding heart. There are plenty of other dictators we could have stopped. Theres genocide happening in Sudan right now, AIDS are killing millions in Africa, and Russia is crushing a freedom resistance. Those are all worthy causes, much more so than Saddam. He was an oppressor, there was no genocide.

2. The goal was Osama, thats what we supported. We were duped into Iraq with fear. Now, I think, we're too thin to protect ourselves from anybody.

3. Kerrys plan is a little more indepth than that. You can find it at any bookstore:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1586483145/002-6105396-4580863?v=glance

4. The draft bill was actually written by a couple of Democrats who immediately voted it down. It was a symbolic gesture to the nation. Think of it as the lefty version of the gay-marriage amendment to the constitution that was heavily voted down when everyone knew that it wouldn't pass.

Im sorry your friend is pushing his agendy so hard on you, its gotta suck. I don't like to hear my friends try to change me either, but it has given me the motivation to look around a little bit more and try to see where they are coming from. I don't hate Reps, I think they are doing what they think is best for everyone. Unfortunately, I disagree with their choice of leadership and parts of their agenda. Hopefully you'll find a way of seeing past his conviction into his motivations and forgive him for his zeal.

[911boost]

"your" Prsident Super? Last time I looked you weren't leaving the US, so in actuality, until voted out, his is "our" President.

While I did not vote for, or like Clinton, I never once referred to him as not "my" President.....

Just a thought...

(edited due to my crappy spelling)

[djmcmath]

Thanks for the liberal input, Supe. I'd go so far as to say that libs and cons tend to be ... different, though it's very challenging to make any further generalizations. Conservatives tend to be pessimistic about human nature, but optimistic (or maybe just hopeful?) about trends of life. Liberals tend to be optimistic about human nature (the gov't will take care of you, OBL won't bomb again, providing welfare to people will give them a safety net so they can recover, rather than hang out at the bottom, etc.) and pessimistic about future trends.

Or maybe I'm just throwing out a random assertion. Counter-examples are probably easy. Thoughts?

Dan

[island911]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Liberals tend to be optimistic about human nature . . .

Not if that human is a republican.

This "anybody but Bush campaign" is hardly one of beliving the guy has even an ounce of good in him. They say Bush is evil .. . what he does is for evil ends.

So how is that optimistic about human nature ?

[mikester]

Originally posted by A Quiet Boom

First, the libs complain about our involvement in Iraq now that no stockpiles of WMD has been found yet they forget about the hundreds of thousands of people Saddam and his Baathists murdered while at the same time they criticize that we aren't doing enough for the problem in the Sudan. Forget the WMD justification, wasn't the mass murder of Iraqis enough of a reason? And if not then why should we go into the Sudan?

I can't wait for November 3rd....

No, it isn't enough at all. You don't go to war and justify it after the fact. War is a last resort and we went well before we should have. To ask if the genocide of innocent Iraqis was enough for us to go to war (as justification after the fact) I would say "No. Emphatically no it wasnt." The facts are that this crap - as unfortunate as it is - happens every day all over the world. We don't depose leaders in these countries on a daily basis so what makes SH so special? I'm not saying we should just throw our hands up in the air and give up and an I'm not saying that SH didn't need to go but what I am saying is that we were wrong. Period - end of story.

France may have been selling weapons and making deal with SH - they were wrong too but that still doesn't make us right in our war. Supporting evidence of this is still yet to be seen past the initial reports (to me - I may be behind on this).

In my opinion the uncertainty surrounding this whole situation has been there from the beginning and that in and of itself should have demanded much more caution than we showed.

President Bush's administration has made mistakes that cannot be left to chance to happen again. I do not believe that he is a bad President but I do believe Al Gore would have been more cautious and I also believe that America will be better off with someone else. John Kerry is not my #1 choice for President but of the options I have he is where I will place my chips in this election.

[djmcmath]

Like I said, "counter examples ought to be easy," and "further generalizations are challenging."

In terms of how people in general will respond, liberals tend to be more optimistic. For example, libs (generally) believe that giving gov't money to single mothers with no jobs will help. It will give them some safety net, and a chance to get back on their feet. The assumption is not that they will take advantage of the system. Libs (generally) are more in favor of unions (Supe, I know you're an exception to that), on the grounds that individual people, the workers, are more honorable than large corporations.

Specific examples? Libs are certainly smart enough to make exceptions to their general principles. Not that I agree with their logic against Bush, but they've taken inputs and reached a conclusion that they find reasonable, in a specific case.

(shrug) Just tossing out an idea. Discussion is fun.

Dan

[A Quiet Boom]

Please don't misunderstand what I meant about WMD, i am not trying to justifiy the war after the fact. I was trying to point out hypocrisy, please tell me why we went into Kosovo again?

Now let's pretend you are the President of the US, your responsiblity is to protect the American people. The attacks of 9/11 have occured and the whole country is afraid of another attack. You then receive intelligence from a sleu of intelligence agencies not just from the US but also from around the world that Saddam has stockpiles of WMD and is working on nuclear technology. There is proof that he has used WMD in the past, he has stated his hatred for the US and he pays suicide bombers to attack Israel. What would your decision be? Would you do nothing and hope Saddam doesn't put some of that stockpile into the hands of terrorists and fund an attack on a major US city or cities? Before the war nearly everyone agreed that Saddam had WMD, in fact most of the world's leaders and their intelligence networks believed he had them. Saddam further added to the myth by blocking the inspectors, any logical person at the time would conclude that he must have something to hide. Russia, Germany and France had nothing to worry about since they basically paid Saddam off, kind of like paying the mafia for protection. We all know that hindsight is 20/20 and had we known now what we didn't know then we might not have attacked Iraq, or maybe we would have attacked for humanitarian reasons. The fact is you have to go with the evidence you have before you and that is exactly what Bush did. The problem the liberals have is they forget GW's other reasons for going to Iraq, freeing a country and setting up a democracy in the ME was and is a grandiose idea and truly forward looking and when liberty fully takes hold I'll bet it has a huge influence on the populations of the other countries in the region.

These same liberals talk about the dangers of Iran and N. Korea, but who was it that pointed out this axis of evil? Then they insinuate that we should get tougher with these countries, haven't they noticed that we are already trying their paln of diplomacy with little success? Getting tougher will mean invading those countries yet when and if we must do that the libs will say we rushed to war. I believe Bush knew going in that Iraq might cost him a second term but he thought it was the right thing to do and had to be done, now that is the sign of a strong leader. Based on the polls before Iraq Bush was a shoe in for a second term and now that he has made the tough decision and taken the political fallout not one liberal will even give the guy credit for being strong in a time of crisis. Kerry and Edwards supported the war when it was a popular idea and now they don't, they don't have the credibiltiy or principals to run this country. And lest you think I'm merely being partisan, you should know that I supported Clinton's action in Kosovo as well as his missle strikes against Saddam's suspected WMD sites, those were the right things to do. And if Clinton had intelligence that Saddam might try to use WMD against the US in a terrorist strike I'd of supported an invasion then as I do now. It seems to me we should be more concerned with what might have happened to those weapons we didn't find rather than call Bush a liar for laying out the evidence he had at the time.

[911pcars]

Christian,
The key is the supposed link between 9/11 and Saddam - now widely proven bogus (if you don't listen to Bush/Cheney). GW and friends never had any conclusive proof of WMDs, only speculation and suspicion. But that was apparently good enough for them.

If you were in charge, would you risk the life of American soldiers, commit resources and credibility with the world and attack a sovereign country based merely on a hunch and suspect intelligence reports? That's what happened.

Blessed with hindsight, I think a wiser person would have concentrated on the perps who were responsible for 9/11 while still maintaining an eye on the axis. If I were Bush, I might have asked my father for advice which he apparently never did or admitted to. Seems reasonable to me. I might have followed the suggestions of veteran Gulf war commanders like Powell and others with more experience in waging war. I might have listened to State Dept. officials about post-war responsibilities to win the peace and preserve infrastructure instead of concentrating so much on the front end. And I might have learned something from this experience instead of rationalizing why we attacked in the first place. And you suggest we repeat this scenario with Iran and South Korea?

Obsessing over the past is only important in that we don't repeat the same errors in judgement or re-elect the same leaders who would, given the chance, continue their ethnocentric view of world order.

Sherwood