Cooking our own democratic goose...

dd74 · 10-22-2004, 09:50 PM

I believe Nov. 2 will be the gigantic world smack down of American democracy. Why? Because as Steve Stromberg initiated in his thread, 20,000 lawyers are poised to descend on battle states where every vote is crucial, while Tabs' "Democracy at Risk" thread states more or less the same thing. Both threads got me thinking:

Here we are, forcing, coercing, encouraging (choose your verb) Iraq into democratic elections, and yet, the Dems in this country, need 20,000 lawyers to make sure our own elections are up to snuff, not to mention however many lawyers the GOP has on retainer come Nov. 2. Not just that, but as Stromberg's thread points out, Kerry plans to immediately name cabinet members once (and if) he is named president smacks of of a quick change job in lieu of Gore's retractions in 2000, not to mention a pure defensive move if Bush balks toward the eventual electoral result.

My question is this: what message does this send to those to whom we would like to "instill" democracy? If we can't get our own election process in gear, how can we be trusted with encouraging that same process on another country?

BTW: word has it Afghanistan's elections were a sham as some Afghani citizens say Hamid Karzai was more "installed" than voted in only because he's the U.S.'s boy. As well, of the Jan elections in Iraq - which is a stretch to believe will happen - how can any Iraqi trust democratic elections provided the trouble we have with the same process here at home?

928ram · 10-22-2004, 10:23 PM

Well, we could advice them to write a constitution that allows a limited number of lawyers per capita; that'd solve alot of our problems...

dd74 · 10-22-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 928ram
Well, we could advice them to write a constitution that allows a limited number of lawyers per capita; that'd solve alot of our problems...

Hmmm...okay, but if we're not limiting the number of lawyers per capita but asking "them" to do so, what msg. does that send?

See, it's a Catch 22.

island911 · 10-22-2004, 11:33 PM

Decisive or devisive.

If the count is reflective of the polling, we will be okay. (as far as fabricated lawsuits go) GW will have enough vote margine that no amount of legal nuancing and manuvering will make-up hte ground.

If the count is at all close, then the 600 million dollar man Kerry will pull a Gore.

Keep in mind Bush has been thru this once already. I see, if Kerry pulls a Gore, the Bush team will hit him HARD with multiple legal attacks; including the "technically treason" charge as well as Kerrys illegal campaign finace links to Move-on.org.

dd74 · 10-23-2004, 12:09 AM

I see and understand your answers. But it's the "ifs" that raise the red flags in this. "If" isn't quite a notion in democratic elections as they are advertised, of course.

A caveat though (and possible answer): should we have the UN/or Jimmy Carter, etc. monitor our own elections? Just to show that our elections don't represent a perfect system, but it is a better system. We just need some monitoring in the same way Afghanistan and Iraq (will) or any developing democracy needs monitoring.

ubiquity0 · 10-23-2004, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by island911
I see, if Kerry pulls a Gore ---or if he wins---, the Bush team will hit him HARD with multiple legal attacks; including the "technically treason" charge as well as Kerrys illegal campaign finace links to Move-on.org.

911pcars · 10-23-2004, 03:14 AM

Goes to show you that even in the US, a democracy has to continually work at it to maintain its integrity. Can't take it for granted.

Sherwood

cegerer · cegerer's Garage

This is shaping up to be one UGLY election, thanks to the Dems ....... not a day seems to go by without a report of Democrats trashing a Bush/Republican headquarters somewhere. For all their talk about compassion and peace, they're an unusually violent bunch

And now this:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-pglitch23oct23,0,3825651,print.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

It must be miserable for these Kerry supporters to go thru life with such anger. These people really need to get a grip. Maybe spend some time with their kids. Go to the beach. Hit some golf balls. Or, maybe just move to France.

350HP930 · 10-23-2004, 11:36 AM

Democrats violent? If memory serves me correctlly it was a pro-bush mob that attacked an election counting station in south florida, not gore supporters.

We also don't have to go too far back in history to the 'good ol days' here in the south when the right wingers would just stick the dogs and firehoses on the uppity minorities who dared to try to vote.

island911 · 10-23-2004, 11:48 AM

It is abundantly obvious which side has moore of dem attack dogs this time around.

350HP930 · 10-23-2004, 11:56 AM

This time around? I guess that is an interesting way of putting that it hasn't happened yet.

island911 · 10-23-2004, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 350HP930
This time around? I guess that is an interesting way of putting that it hasn't happened yet.

ya mean; it hasn't completed yet . . .this election cycle hasn't completed yet.

Yes, very observant.

The point was; with guys like Moore pushing huge lies to rally division and hate, the Dem's have many attack dogs barking up a storm. The intimidation tactics have already started; this time around.

350HP930 · 10-23-2004, 01:15 PM

Lies? Any examples? I think bush certainly has MM beat when it comes to using lies and hate to divide our nation.

tabs · 10-24-2004, 12:55 PM

DD...American Elections have ALWAYS been Fked up...with votes lost, the dead voting or some such Tom Foolery.....but what makes this different is that this is the first time BOTH SIDES DISTRUST THE OTHERS MOTIVES....Not since the Civil War has the Nation been so divided...

And 911P you make me laugh....is this the frist time you've had the thought that Democracy and Freedom isn't to be taken for granted....That the Americas Freedoms have been in place for so long that you just think that that is the way it is.....Well if your thinking about not taking Democracy for granted maybe you might want to add one other thing into the mix....like your standard of living might go the way of Democracy and Freedom in this country...I wonder how long it might take you to get to work if yu had to ride a bicycle or walk...thats if you still have a job to go to...

tabs · 10-24-2004, 12:57 PM

Yeah 350 ....the interpetation of those 7 minutes Bushy sat in that school room on 911....FABRICATION.....as to motive...

350HP930 · 01:52 PM

He asks the important questions about what could be going through his mind in those crutial minutes. I guess that is a question the bush lovers don't dare speculate about.

911pcars · 10-24-2004, 07:04 PM

tabs wrote:
"....you make me laugh....is this the frist time you've had the thought that Democracy and Freedom isn't to be taken for granted."

No it isn't the frist time, but I had to remind that to others who may have overlooked it. Remember Tabs, democracy and freedoms are usually lost a little at a time; sometimes in the name of feeling "safer".

Sherwood

tabs · 10-24-2004, 08:19 PM

I think Ben Franklin said something along those lines too..P car

I just have no respect for Michael Moorer...he's just a pimp for the DNC...and as I said before it goes back to his bashing of Monica...he was really trash talking about her...and when the infamous blue dress showed up he had to shut his mouth...

911pcars · 10-24-2004, 09:01 PM

I hadn't heard that about Moore. However, better to admit one's mistakes. Not too much of that from our administration.

Ben Franklin said a lot of wise things. People, in general, ignore history only to see it repeated. Did Ben say that too?

Sherwood

mikester · 10-24-2004, 09:29 PM

Personally I think out most difficult problem with our voting processes is that most of not all of the people in the postion to oversee the elections in each state are partisan. Regardless of their best intentions - they have a side as a Republican or a Democrat - they are BIASED and cannot be impartial. If we wanted fair elections we would not be depending on a partisan process to determine our leaders.