Subaru: A performance car company?

[Phoenix]

I'm doing a little fact finding for a work project, (I work for a marketing company) and I'd really love to hear your input.

We all know that the Subaru WRX (especially the STI version) is a real performer. If you look at the rest of Subaru's lineup, especially the Legacy & Forrester models, does their combination of AWD and Turbo'd engines make Subaru a performance car?
Is this company really making strides in the performance arena?
On the technical side, does the combination of AWD and a Turbo make a better performer than either one alone?

What are your thoughts?

[pwd72s]

Strides in the perfomance area? I'm not sure. GM came out with the Corvette while still making Chevrolet station wagons. I'm thinking that the Subaru execs and bean counters consider this to be "broadening the market". Much the same as Porsche is doing with the Cayenne. In other words, "sell what you can, while you can, and the bottom line is everything." When a car company takes on that attitude, quality gets ever so gently shoved into the back seat...

[island911]

What he pwd said.

I'll add. . .

i think that Honda is positioned better, than sub', for pulling off a performance image. (Motorcycles, F1 motors . .. lots of money spent on NSX.

Sub has some good engineering, IMO . .. and has had it for a while. Smart configurations (AWD/Turbo, boxer motors, good ground clearance. ..)
However,my perception is that subaru cuts corners (so to speak) in the construction/manufacturing side. (needed for price-point, I know)

So, while the WRX may be a blast to drive, like rocket . . . but like a rocket, its fun, burns-up, thrown away.

"Performance" (from a 911-centric perspective) means; it goes like hell, fun . . .for 20-30 years.

[Victor]

Q: We all know that the Subaru WRX (especially the STI version) is a real performer. If you look at the rest of Subaru's lineup, especially the Legacy & Forrester models, does their combination of AWD and Turbo'd engines make Subaru a performance car?

A: Compared to other standard non turbo 2WD econoboxes - yes.

Q: Is this company really making strides in the performance arena?

A: Absolutely - especially when you consider the day to day practicality and "bang for buck" factors.

Q: On the technical side, does the combination of AWD and a Turbo make a better performer than either one alone?

A: Depends on what you want to use it for. Based on what has been happening in the world of rallye for the last couple of decades - yes.

Q: What are your thoughts?

A: 99.8% of people who buy a performance car don't really need one. It just gives them a sense of belonging.

[Adam]

FWIW, Subarus certainly aren't "throw-away" cars.

Sure, there's a distinct lack of 30-year old Subes on the road (unlike our treasured 911s), but that's mainly because they've only started building really good cars since the early '90s.

Proper Jap-spec WRXs (and STi models - Type RA, Type C etc) are hardcore performance cars.

[CamB]

There are plenty of Legacy RS's (Liberty RS in Australia) which are now around 15 years old still being thrashed around NZ's roads.

The main problem is that they eventually become uneconomic to repair - not because they are poorly built compared to a 911, rather because they cost 5-10% of what a 911 costs.

[bluebullet]

they break too much...the stupid kids around here blow them up and i spend a good part of my job fixing transmissions and what not..i just pulled one out of a guy today who toasted the #1 piston because usually the #3 is the one that takes all the beating....blew the side of the piston clean off and there is all chunks down in the pan..thats what u get for spraying it with no jets in the nozzles, just STi injectors and a fuel pump and a bigger turbo with 18psi and still stock exhaust....

lot of ppl have broken trannies or rear ends around here

[84porsche]

IMHO, Subaru is targeting a specific market with their "performance" cars. They want to get the younger racing generation to buy these while at the same time gaining a market of mid 30s-40s people to be able to afford a performance car for on or about 20k. If they need the higher value they smack a SAAB badge and sell it higher and thats what they did.

[nostatic]

there are a fair amount of older subies still on the road, but if they are dead, it is becuase they are beat to snot, not because they were/are poorly built.

Subie clearly wants the young/outdoor market, and the racing has been an attempt to woo the more performance crowd. I don't think you can fault them for blown cars though. If you put a 911 in the hands of a kid with little sense, you'd get the same outcome. And its cheaper to mod the cars, and since the younguns want "more power" they certainly are going to blow them up.

[CamB]

Yeah, I understand the two areas they have problems are transmission related (which are too weak for elevated power or abuse) and too much boost related.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by bluebullet
they break too much...the stupid kids around here blow them up and i spend a good part of my job fixing transmissions and what not..i just pulled one out of a guy today who toasted the #1 piston because usually the #3 is the one that takes all the beating....blew the side of the piston clean off and there is all chunks down in the pan..thats what u get for spraying it with no jets in the nozzles, just STi injectors and a fuel pump and a bigger turbo with 18psi and still stock exhaust....

lot of ppl have broken trannies or rear ends around here

WTF? So this kid either (a) stupidly mods his car and blows the engine....duh, the same would happen if you did similar nonsense to a 911, or (b) sidesteps the clutch and blows the tranny...

Here's a hint...your 915 tranny won't survive that type of abuse either.

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Phoenix
If you look at the rest of Subaru's lineup, especially the Legacy & Forrester models, does their combination of AWD and Turbo'd engines make Subaru a performance car?
Is this company really making strides in the performance arena?
On the technical side, does the combination of AWD and a Turbo make a better performer than either one alone?

What are your thoughts?

"This '00 Subaru Impreza WRX STi is meant to pick up where the Hyper Lemon Evo V left off. How do you top a 558hp Evo? This was easy enough for JUN as the Super Lemon GDB packs a whopping 582hp @ 7,600rpm with 495lb-ft of torque at 5,600rpm from its stroked flat four."

AWD 4 cylinder turbo-charged sedan that comes off the lot with a 5.7 0-60 at 227 horsies...Simple turbo/fuel pump/injectors upgrade can easily get into the 350-400 hp area...bringing your 0-60 times around 4.2-4.6 seconds easy...It is a canyon beast with a weak transmission, so you just upgrade to a 6-speed bullet proof tranny.

I have 30,000 miles on mine and the first gear synchro is going...I am talking abusive use.

Subaru blew the affordable supercar market wide open with this release. The import manufacturers are in scramble mode to release low-cost rice-rockets, and the market is loving it....As it stands the WRX/STI leads the pack but the Evo has them beat in skid-pad and handling (HP is Subaru's)...This race to please performance enthusiasts will be very interesting (sorta like the American muscle-car wars of a few years back), as they are in "one-upmanship" mode.

[CamB]

Isn't it more a race to see who can federalise their cars the quickest? There have been japanese domestic 2 litre turbos for about 15 years. 20 years if you are prepared to go back to the Starion (Cannonball Run).

For instance, Nissan USED to make a 2 litre, turbo charged, rear wheel drive car which retailed for about 80% of what a WRX does (in NZ) (a 200SX, not a 240SX which you guys had). Then they, kinda inexplicably, stopped.

Now THAT was a cheap and fun car for the masses (the SR20DET inline 4 can also make 300+hp for not much $$$).

Mind you, Subaru did a very good thing by going to a 2.5.

[ZAMIRZ]

Originally posted by BlueSkyJaunte
WTF? So this kid either (a) stupidly mods his car and blows the engine....duh, the same would happen if you did similar nonsense to a 911, or (b) sidesteps the clutch and blows the tranny...

Here's a hint...your 915 tranny won't survive that type of abuse either.

I agree. That car is built fairly stout, but stupid people are stupid people, they find out a way to ruin a good thing.

[Mulholland]

2005 Subaru Legacy Turbo



The U.S.-market 250-hp turbo, at 2.5 liters in displacement, is down about 30 horsepower from the Japanese-market 2.0-liter turbo at 280 hp. The optional engine will be a naturally aspirated 3.0-liter flat-six, also making 250 horses, a reworking of the six currently employed in the Outback. The turbo model has a paddle-shifting option on the five-speed automatic and should come with 17-inch wheels mounted on rubber measuring 215/45, with 16-inchers on the base cars.

We spent a day at Fuji Raceway trying to make these cars cry. The turbo model claims a 0-to-62-mph time of 5.8 seconds, and it gets there with a vibrant, singing exhaust note. It has great balance, steering that is light and progressive, and an absence of oversteer owing to the all-wheel drive. It was great fun to toss around. It should cause concern for a lot of pricier cars, and we think the U.S. car's power sacrifice shouldn't dissuade anyone. With any luck, the turbo car should sell in the $27,000-to-$29,000 range, with the blown wagon going for $3000 more.

Manufacturer: Fuji Heavy Industries, Limited, Tokyo, Japan
Vehicle type: front-engine, 4-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan or 5-door wagon
Estimated base price: $25,000
Engines: SOHC 16-valve 2.5-liter flat-4, 165 hp (est); turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 16-valve 2.5-liter flat- 4, 250 hp (est); DOHC 24-valve 3.0-liter flat-6, 250 hp
Transmissions: 5-speed manual, 4-speed and 5-speed autos with manumatic shifting
Wheelbase: 105.1 in
Length: 182.5-184.3 in
Curb weight: 3000-3200 lb



Ya, I would say Subaru is making a move on the performance market.

[Adam]

I have driven a Legacy 2.0 Turbo and it is a superb car to drive.

They've now got flat-sixes (3.0 - 240hp) with 6-speed manual AWD transmissions in the same Legacy body. Definite performance cars!

[dd74]

I wouldn't turn my nose up at any Subaru. They're all quite nice.

But I'm not giving up the 911.

[RallyJon]

About the transmission, first remember that AWD transmissions take much more abuse than F or RWD transmissions due to less tire slip.

Subaru has recently replaced the 5-speed with a 6-speed on the performance models. This is similar to Porsche replacing the 901 with 915 with G50. A good driver could make the old gearbox last just fine, but the bad drivers gave it a bad rep. The 6-speed is an amazing, world class transmission. Short throws, precise, notchy engagement, lockout reverse, and it'll hold 400+ horsepower.

If you haven't driven an STI, you really should. The capabilities of the drivetrain are stunning, and ALL in the direction of performance. With three true limited slip differentials (none of the pansy-assed ABS sensor braking fake-differential effects) this car puts 300HP to work as efficiently as 150HP in most cars.

Phoenix, as to your original question--Subaru seems to be patterning their approach to the mass market the same way Audi did with their "S" cars. The new Legacy will combine luxury with performance like Audi did with the S4 and S6. Of course, the rest of the line will sell better from the Halo, like Audi's dull A4 and A6.

The U.S. is about the only place on earth where Subaru is not known as a performance brand.

[CJFusco]

damn near every car company now has a performance car. Mitsu has the Lancer EVO (and had the Eclipse and 3000GT before), Dodge has the Viper, Chevy has the Vette, Ford has the Mustang and GT40, Honda has the S2000, and on and on

I wouldn't call any of these "performance brands" however

Even BMW, whose entire line seems to be relatively sporty, comes off as being more of a luxury brand than a performance brand. Ditto for Merc, Jag, and Audi.

The true performance brands? Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus, Aston, Maser, TVR, and some smaller companies like Radical and Caterham. Why? Because they build almost exclusively performance cars, and their performance cars make up the majority of the cars sold on the market, unlike Suburu who undoubtedly sells more Forresters than WRXs.

[RallyJon]

Well, not in the same league with TVR, perhaps.

Think about Subaru of America's model lineup ten years ago. Look at the model lineup for 2005. Pretty amazing improvement if you're a car enthusiast with any pulse at all. Hard to say that they're not moving in the right direction.

Subaru's reputation does suffer from consumer ignorance, though. Lots of people who have never experienced one pass quick judgement.