Is it really guns that are the problem in Fallujah? Or Iraq in general? Sticking to that country specifically, how much do you think a weapon would bring on the black market?

Guns on the streets of Iraq isn't a bad thing, it's convincing the good guys that it's better to use it and defend themselves with it than to sell it and get the equivalent of three years salary.

Want a novel gun control/insurgent control idea? Carpet bomb the country with weapons, flood the market making them economically irrelevant. Then see what happens.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Hell no. I just make this up. Discuss....

Yes, I take the position -- in as much as I don't really understand the dialectic.

First, I don't believe the US has formed a position on "gun control" in Iraq -- except perhaps that the wholesale removal of munitions from the hands of terrorists is a good idea. If there is spillover into the civilian "non-terrorist" community of our efforts to confiscate weapons, this would seem understandable given the wartime conditions. It seems safer to err on the side of unconditional confiscation for now. Do we have a policy to remove weapons from law-abiding civilians in Iraq? Do we even know who these civilians are yet, without a doubt?

Further, I'm not clear how any comparison can be made between the conditions in Iraq (or any nation) during a war and the debate over gun control and its efficacy in our country. The cultural and historical differences could not be greater. The analogy seems more like an attempt to ascribe some kind of hypocritical double standard to a pro-gun administration trying to impose order on a country awash with both guns and non-uniformed combatants trying to lay hold of those guns to kill our soldiers.

As a postscript, how the the prima facie preposterousness of "gun control" is not grasped more easily and by more escapes me. The most crime-ridden city in America, Washington, DC, also boasts the strictest "gun control." This basic formula follows more or less in almost every other city. As for Europe, recent and dramatic spikes in violent crime are being seen all over Europe, consistent with its ever stricter gun control laws.

hahaha....is it one more of those "if we don't have facts, we'll make things up to support our case"...?

Can you please point to source of "recent and dramatic spikes in violent crime being seen all over Europe"??

How much do you know about crime statistics in Europe?

BeepBeep.
How much do YOU know about crime statistics in Europe?
Violent crime is rising!
Resrtictions on private firearms ownership are increasing.
Restrictions on citizens defending themselves are increasing.
Sheeple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why don't you produce your statistics Compared to ten twenty thirthy years ago
that show violent crime is not on the increase.
That one is safe on the streets.
That one is safe in one's home.

Who said this?

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

?????

Since the topic has changed to reliable sources for gun control inefficiency, below is a link with reliable sources.

http://www.gunfacts.info/index.html

Not allowed;)

That site gives progun information:)

Mahatma Gandhi

Blue - you get the prize.

As for Europeans and gun control laws, there has not in recent memory been any kind of broad based firearem ownership as one sees in the US. The spike in crime has more to do with cultural breakdowns and 50 years of mushy headed liberalism run amok. When they had guns, they didn't much need them. Now that they need them, they are pretty much not allowed..

Look at the previous thread of Europeans not being able to protect themselves or defend their own homes. A mindset that we cannot comprehend in this country.

First extract is from LA Times, arguably most liberal newspaper in America.

Report, published on the Internet in June by the British government's Home Office http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hosb601.pdf), shows that while the United States was enjoying steady decreases in crime through the late 1990s, some European countries were suffering through substantial increases, especially in two areas that might interest a traveler: violent crime and car thefts.

From 1995 through 1999, while overall reported crimes were falling 16% in the U.S, violence has been on the increase in Western Europe. In England and Wales, reports of violent crimes (including violence against persons, robbery and sexual offenses) increased 20% from 1995 through 1999. In France, incidents rose 31%. In Italy, they rose 37%. In Poland, 39%. In the Netherlands, 34%. In Switzerland (which had a low starting point, just 6,042 such incidents in a nation of 7.1 million), violent crimes increased 41%.

Britain has the highest level of homicides in western Europe and the totals for robberies and thefts of motor vehicles have also been close to the highest in the European Union, outstripped only by France, the Home Office figures show.



Second is from Wall Street Journal of April 30, 2002, on correlation between stricter gun control and higher crime, with link.

European gun laws have everything American gun control proponents advocate. Yet, the three very worst public shootings in the last year all occurred in Europe. Indeed around the world, from Australia to England, countries that have recently strengthened gun control laws with the promise of lowering crime have instead seen violent crime soar.


www.tsra.com/Lott54.htm

hehehe...funny you forgot to mention two things:

1. Europe enjoys much lower crime rate than US, even in "horrible violent United Kingdom".

2. There was no big change in gun laws in those countries between 1995 and 1999...gun laws are just as they have been for decades.

When I posed in this thread, I purposedly abstained from commenting US gun laws, just to keep gun-toting wise-a$$es telling me how I should shut up beacuse "it's his country nd he'll do whatever he wants there".

To much amusement, It didn't prevent people from US (a country with much higher gun-related crime rate than practically any country in Europe, and unfortunately most of the civilized world) from speading gospel and teaching Europeans how they should shape their gun-laws. Hillarious!

Hey, when you are down on those horrible European levels I'll listen! I don't care as long as you do anything you want in US...it's your country. But preaching this sort of bul....t to us while having those stats is laughable.

/Sincerely

Well, let's straighten out any misunderstandings.


American vs. European Crime Rates

A German lawyer, in response to another blog entry (German Justice: 2 Days Per Murder), repeated the common European belief that the United States has a much higher crime rate than major European countries. The facts are quite different.

[UPDATE 8/15/2003 - For sources, see end of article]

Here are Interpol 2001 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):

4161 - US
7736 - Germany
6941 - France
9927 - England and Wales

Thus the US has a substantially lower crime rate than the major European countries.

Here are the Interpol 1995 crime statistics (rate per 100,000):


5278 - US
8179 - Germany
6316 - France
7206 - England & Wales

Hence the trend in the US is towards a lower crime rate, while the trend in Europe (except Germany) is towards an increasing crime rate.

It is true that the USA has a high murder rate, mostly of criminals killing criminals, but a distressingly large number of people killing their spouses in anger, and the rate of "stranger killings" is rising.

However, the homicide rates have been dropping dramatically as the US has been increasing penalties:

Homicide Rate/100,000 by Date in US:

1980 - 10.2
2000 - 5.5

Also, our murder rate is high largely due to the multicultural nature of US society. Inner city blacks, members of a distinct subculture, have a vastly higher criminal and victim homicide rate than our society as an average:

Homicide Offender Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):


3.4 - White
25.8 - Black
3.2 - Other

It is often hypothesized that blacks are overrepresented in murder statistics due to racism on the part of police and the justice system. If this were true, one would expect that the race of victims would have significantly different distribution than the race of the perpetrators, but this is not the case:

Homicide Victim Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):


3.3 - White
20.5 - Black
2.7 - Other

Thus if you remove homicides committed by blacks (total: 21862, Blacks:9316), and assume a proportionality between number of offenders and number of offenses, you can extrapolate US homicide offender rate of only 2.6/100,000, lower than Germany (3.27) and France (3.91).



In all fairness, this is not all related to gun control, and you correctly point out that the trends cited began prior to stricter gun control laws. However, you fail to point out the pre-existing stricter standard of gun control laws in Europe, and the possibility of a connection between this and a rising curve of crime.

Further, other factors have contributed to rising crime in Europe, including liberalized sentencing standards and poor relations among police and communities.

According to any analysis, Western Europe's criminal rate has surpassed the United States. The trends indicate the gap widening.




SOURCES:
International data come from these Interpol documents.

U.S. Data by Ethnicity comes from this Deparment of Justice document. Note that it has separate linked pages, and you need to go into it aways. Also you can get raw numbers by clicking on the graphs.

I also read that some European countries do not report vilolent crimes as such without an idictment. In other words, if they cannot find a suspect it is not considered a "crime" on the books. Perhaps this is only "gun crimes", anyone know if this is true?

Either way, Beep you apprear to be quite incorrect regarding crime rates. Are we missing something?

Only Tyrants want to have Gun Control....

I believe in gun control....draw, point, aim, squeeze. Now THAT'S gun control.

Airdales will laugh at anything...especially if they are drunk.

Nothing worse than a drunk Airedale with a gun.

I just get the he11 outa their way till they sleep it off....

LOL!