E-46 323, 325 or 328 how much difference?

[Tim Hancock]

The wife is starting to worry about the high mileage on her 92 E-36 325i (235,000 miles). The car still looks and drives great, but if I want to continue pumping time and money in my play P-cars< I better give her an upgrade. I am looking at 1999 and newer E-46 BMW's that have 70-100k mileage (I refuse to have car payments ever again so we buy used and I sort the cars out).

Is there much difference between the 323,325 and 328?
I am happy with the performance of our 325i manual and I would think that any of the newer 3 series would be equivalent or even better.

It would broaden my options if someone can tell me that all three that I listed are close in performance and reliability.

I am not interested in the additional cost of a 330 (this is primarily going to be driven by my wife).

[RANDY P]

Careful with those. a few glitches with 'em compared to the E36. Issues with constant breaking window regulators, lower control arm bushing failures, and the big one - subframe mount tears. Mine in paticular has airbag light issues. (2000 328). Do a search on google for subframe tears BMW and see what you get. Compared to an e36 and esp. an e30 (Both of those and an e24 I've owned) there's lots of bugs. Most of these failures are typical before the 50K mark, and on occasion 2 -3x per issue..

In terms of pricing, most say that a 328 (or a 330) which these days dont' cost much more than a 323/325 but is much stronger and better resale. In May the e90 comes out which will put the e46 pricing down even more. Wait a bit and grab a 330, but buy one with a warranty.

Good luck.

rjp

[Tim Hancock]

Thanks Randy

I will definitely put the car on a lift before any purchase. After searching, I found that the E-36 cars were also having the same frame tears. I am going to put mine on the lift today and check it. My car is lowered with Bilstein sports and it sounds like the modified cars are more likely to fail. If I end up buying an E46 I will leave the suspension stock and check it out on my lift often.

The windows and suspension bushings do not scare me too much, but I hope the newer engines and drive trains are built as well as my old 92.
I have had no trouble with my engine or powertrain (still original clutch!).
This car still drives wonderfully (maybe I just got lucky with this one).
I have done brakes,voltage regulator, muffler, shocks, belts, heater core and o-ring in the ac evaporator since I puchased this car with 135,000 miles on it. Half of which I had to do when I bought it at a low
price. Other than these items, this car has been troublefree. I now add a quart of oil at 3-4k miles (I change oil at 6-7k).

I want to see how many miles I can put on it so I think I will start driving it myself as a daily driver once my wife gets hers. Besides, it gets about 26 mpg on regular gas vs 20 with my current daily drivers (Toyota Tacoma winter, 951 summer premium gas).

PS my airbag light has been on for the past 4 yrs, so I guess it is not a new problem.

[David]

We bought a 99 323i with 15K miles in 2001, now it has 65K miles.

I've replaced:
The front lower control arms and bushings, they were about $150 each, but they were the stiffer coupe units.
Two sets of front brake disks (the wife drives pretty hard)
One clutch (see above)
Left rear wheel bearing (done by dealer for over $500, ouch)
A/C compressor (it was causing an ignition misfire!!?, done by dealer $$$)
Rear view mirror (wouldn't stay in place)
Power steering hose (leaking)
Plastic window molding (came loose)

It's our first BMW and the wife can't see driving anything else. It's comfortable and it handles and stops great. On a road trip to Colorado a couple years ago we got 35 mpg while drivine 9mph over the limit the whole way. She has been saying she's ready for a new one.

[RANDY P]

I love the drivetrain, reason why I don't feel so bad. Mine's got 47K on it, and the oil was changed when I bought it at 42K with Mobil 1 and hasn't used a drop. Love it. Other guys are reporting 150K miles + without any major consumption problems yet, so it appears the engines are still bulletproof. Same can be said about the tranny.

When I purchased mine, I was still impressionable from my previous, esp. my e30 which had 180K when I sold it, barely a quart usage between oil changes. Everything still worked. Hoping this one turns out the same way.

rjp

[Tim Hancock]

I just remembered that I replaced ball joints and tie-rods at 200k.

David what was up with the lower control arms? It seems odd with that low of mileage.

Was it just due to not being able to adjust the alignment or did the bushings rip?

I had tire wear problems when upgraded the suspension and the local
alignment shops would not touch a BMW so I ended up doing it myself
with parallel strings, home made pivot platforms, electronic level and
a die grinder to slot my strut towers. I was able to adjust the rear camber and toe to spec but the fronts still are at about 1 degree neg camber (I was shooting for 1/2 deg neg). Before I did this work I was at 2.5 neg on the front and rear and the rear was toed out about 1/2 degree (not good on tire wear!).

It is ridiculous that these cars have no provision to adjust front camber, if the rubber control arm bushing sags over time, BMW says you have replace parts which I guess they are happy to sell you!

My experience so far seems to suggest that a clean BMW with 100k of highway miles should perform relatively problem free for another 100k yet cost about 1/4 of the price of buying new. I hope this holds true on this next one!

[RANDY P]

some guys are reporting control arm failures within 15K miles. I remember reading some guys changing out 3x by 50K. Lots of hard driving I'm sure.

A somewhat fix would be using M3 bushings which are larger than the existing ones, but from what I can tell there isn't a fix. When the steering starts to jerk when you stab the brakes, then it's starting.

[David]

There was shuddering under braking so I changed the disks even though there was no runout. That helped somewhat, but it was still there. I changed the control arm bushings and it got a little better, but was still there. Finally I changed the lower control arms, when I got them off I found significant movement in the outer ball joint (I replaced the control bushings at the same time even though I had replaced them only a thousand or so miles earlier) This fixed the problem.

The shuddering under braking came back after a year or so, but this time it was the disks. Instead of aftermarket ATE disks, I used BMW disks. After my BMW CCA discount it was only about $10 difference for the disks and there was a visual difference between the two.

[Eric Coffey]

For about the same price or less, you might consider a `97 or `98 M3 sedan (only years they made 4-doors). More power, same E36 reliability, and well, it's an M3! Not to mention, an M car will hold it's value better than any 3XX, regardless of model year.

If you are set on an E46, the 2000 323 is a great car, and is very reliable. It is badged as a 323, but has the 2.5l engine. Plus, it doesn't have the "drive by wire" acclerator (better throttle response). I have seen nice examples with the mileage you stated for under $16k. The 328 will probably hold it's value better though.

Either way, here are a few (E46) options to consider, that should be factored into the offer/purcase price:

Sport package
Premium package
Cold weather package
HK sound system
Xenon headlights
Navigation
leather

[Tim Hancock]

Eric, My wife will be driving this 95% of the time so performance and sport packages do not really matter to me and as long as she has a CD player,leather and overall, a clean car she is happy.

What is the cold weather package?

Money saved on performance here will be squirreled away for my toy enhancement fund. It is sounding like any of the six cylinders will be fine. And resale value does not matter to me because she would hopefully drive this for at least 5 yrs and at least 100k more miles.

thanks for the advice guys!

[Eric Coffey]

Originally posted by Tim Hancock
What is the cold weather package?

It includes 3-stage heated seats, headlight washers, fold-down rear seat, and a ski bag.

It sounds like the E46 323i, 328i, or the newer 325i (which replaced the 323) is the car for your wife! You really can't go wrong with a 3-series bimmer. Good luck.

[David]

Our 99 323i has

Xenon headlights (very nice)
Premium package (moonroof, both seats power, computer)
Full Leather (also very nice)
Premium sound (CD, 10 speakers)

It does not have:
Sport package (the wife says it handles just fine and she doesn't want the car any stiffer)
If I remember correctly the 99 standard suspension is softer than 2000 and up.
Cold weather (It would have been nice to have the ski bag and heated seats, but the BMW integrated roof rack mounts work fine. We bought a Thule rack for skis and it goes on and off easily)

[Halm]

Tim, the 2.5 motors is the 323 and newer 325 are entirely different powerplants as I understand it. The 323 had about 168 HP while the newer one has 184. For comparison, the 328 has 190 HP.

We put 30K miles on an '03 325 Xi in 18 months and didn't have any problems. It was a great car and we sold it the first hour it was up for sale.

FWIW, you might want to consider a Xi for the wife, purely as a safety factor. When I got caught in a 3" snow dusting here last winter, the Xi was more stable than our 4Runner. AWD is now a requirement for daily drivers with us.

[Tim Hancock]

Hal, she wants all-wheel drive but I am trying to convince her that they cost too much and that she does not need it.

In reality, I am afraid of more parts to break/fix knowing that I am going to buy a high mileage car and then attempt to put way more miles on it.


Our present car does OK in snow as long as there is some weight in it.
Last year our family of four went skiing in northern Michigan in it and fully loaded, with Pirreli snow tires, we safely drove 80+ mph on the snow covered highways and we drove thru our condo parking lot that had 4 inches of snow on it without any problems.

Eric, I think the cold weather package will win me some points with the wife. Not because of the ski bag (we have a rack system), but for the heated seats!

We typically have only maybe 10 days a year of bad winter driving days and on those days, if she needs to drive, I leave her the 4wd Tacoma and I get to go play in the snow with my rear wheel drive cars (it is fun for me).

[Halm]

The Xi's don't get much of a premium when new. You might be surprised how cheaply you can make her happy.

As for extra expenses, there was a problem with the rear diff, but BMW was aware of it and it should be fixed under warranty by now for any car you are considering. Also, the BMW AWD system is different than say Audi's. Fewer components to break plus a 30 % front / 70% rear bias so it drives more like a rwd car than other system.

[Tim Hancock]

Halm, I may just have to look at the Xi's.

[asphaltgambler]

Yes the 323 is the 'base' car. It does have the same 2.5 as the 325 but slightly lower HP. The 328 does have the 2.8 engine but also has more creature comforts. I like them all.

[Tim Hancock]

I just found a '99 323i stick w/ 75k for 12,000. I will check it out this weekend. Thanks for the input guys!

[David]

We've been very happy with our 99 323i 5-speed except for the problems noted above. My only issue is the soft suspension without the sport package, but it'll still out handle the vast majority of cars on the road. Don't forget to order a Bentley manual

[Tim Hancock]

Yeah, great I have to order another dam overpriced Bentley, Yippee!