Fake Bible relics

[stuartj]

I'd be willing to bet this has been going on for centuries.

Stuart



Biblical 'discoveries' are exposed as fakes

December 31, 2004
JERUSALEM: Experts are advising world museums to re-examine their biblical relics after Israel charged four collectors and dealers with forging some of the most important artefacts of recent decades.

The indictments issued on Wednesday condemned as fakes the two biggest biblical discoveries in the Holy Land - the purported burial box of Jesus's brother James, and a stone tablet with written instructions by King Yoash on maintenance work at the Jewish Temple - as well as other works.

"The forgers were trying to change history," said the head of the Israel Antiquities Authority, Shuka Dorfman. The counterfeiting ring had been operating for more than 20 years, he said.

Scholars said the forgers were exploiting the emotional need of many Jews and Christians to find physical evidence to reinforce their faith.

The announcement of the charges capped a two-year investment. The indictment lists 124 witnesses, including antiquities collectors, archaeologists, officials from Sotheby's auction house in Israel and representatives of the British Museum and the Brooklyn Museum.

Mr Dorfman said the Israeli investigators had limited resources. "We discovered only the tip of the iceberg," he said. "This spans the globe. It generated millions of dollars."

The gang often used authentic but relatively mundane artefacts, such as a plain burial box, decanter or shard, and boosted their value enormously by adding inscriptions. Once the words were engraved, the forgers tried to recreate patina, or ancient grime, over the carvings, the indictment says.

The investigation began after the Yoash tablet was offered for sale to the Israel Museum for $US4.5 million ($5.8 million) two years ago.

AP

[ronin]

fraud is nothing new. it transcends all lines, be they gender, racial, or religious

[djmcmath]

It is well known that there are enough "shards of the cross of Christ" floating around Europe to build several mid-sized housing developments. The body of St. Peter must have had about 14 hands, given all of the cathedrals that claim to be built on honest-to-goodness relics.

(yawn) Slow news day, Stu?

[rcecale]

I watched a movie recently, on DVD called "Luther"

It was the story of Martin Luther and went into a little bit of detail explaining what drove ML away from the Catholic Church. Several scenes depicting priest, cardinals and several others selling "articles of christ" to raise money for the Pope and the Church.

Quite an interseting movie. Joseph Fiennes played Martin Luther.

Randy

[Victor]

Stuart, if you are trying to say that this sort of tomfoolery is not a modern concept, would one not have to question the validity of the entire old and new testament?

Makes you think who's wise scribblings these all are.....

[stuartj]

You are a smart and, may I say, a very debonaire man, Victor.

Shadowfax, what is news is the unearthing of a major, modern fraud ring in false biblical artifacts. Doubtless the significance of this will not be lost on a man of your considerable intelligence.

Stuart

[Victor]

...not to mention DEAD SET SEXY!

[ronin]

Originally posted by Victor
Stuart, if you are trying to say that this sort of tomfoolery is not a modern concept, would one not have to question the validity of the entire old and new testament?

why?

[Victor]

Originally posted by ronin
why?

....if you need to ask why questions like this need asking you must be one of those who doesn't question anything much.

[Milu]

The selling of fake religious relics is an old established and very profitable business. I am sure it predates Christianity.

[Victor]

Didn't someone find bits of Noah's Ark somewhere up a very high mountain buried in snow and ice back in the 70's?

Edit: AFTERTHAUGHT: I might stick them on eBay and see if some religeous nutter will pay me bigger $$ for it than the idiot who scored the cheese sandwitch shaped like mother Mary....

[ronin]

Originally posted by Victor
....if you need to ask why questions like this need asking you must be one of those who doesn't question anything much.

if the best you can do to answer my question is this reply, then perhaps you need to re-read your original post

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by Victor
....if you need to ask why questions like this need asking you must be one of those who doesn't question anything much.

It's a logical question. There isn't any direct link between false religious artifacts (or true religious artifacts, for that matter) and the accuracy of the text. The sorts of things the article talks about are things like "Paul's finger bone" or "shards of the cross of Christ." These items have no archaeological significance, and are utterly unrelated to demonstrating historical accuracy of a manuscript. So the question stands, aside from the fact that you didn't even bother answering it: why would the realization that people are faking grilled-cheese Mary's make you question the validity of the NT?

As to Noah's Ark, there are as many Ark hunters as there are Grail hunters. Some believe that it's beneath the ice somewhere in Asia. Most of us will believe the Ark doesn't exist any longer (neither Ark, that is -- either Noah's or the Covenant).


Dan

[djmcmath]

Let me sum this one up real quick:

Stu: "Someone claimed they had found the apple that fell on Newton's head."
Viktor: "That means Newton didn't exist! It casts a shadow of doubt over all of Newtonian physics!"
Ronin: "Why?"
Victor: "If you have to ask, you must not be a critical thinker."

??????????

[666]

SCHOLARS AND ARCHEOLIGISTS HAVE FOUND NOTHING TO PROVE THE BIBLE

THE UNIVERSITY OF TEL AVIV IN TEL AVIV ISRAEL

Here is an article from USA Today by Matthew Kalman

It comes from Tel Aviv University in Tel Aviv Israel. It quotes Professor Ze'ev Herzog

The many Egyptian documents known to us do not make any reference to the sojourn of the Children of Israel in Egypt or the Events of the Exodus. Generations of scholars tried to locate Mt. Sinai.and the stations of the tribes of Israel in the desert. Despite all this diligent research not one site was identified that could correspond to the Biblical picture. Professor Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University.An Israeli archeologist is drawing fire for claiming that the Biblical history of the Jewish people is probably fiction

Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University argued that the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt probably never happened, the Ten Commandments were not given on Mt. Sinai and Joshua never conquered the land of Israel.

Herzog says that if there was a King David he was probably nothing more then a tribal Chieftian, the same for King Solomon.

Herzog says there is no evidence that Joshua led the children of Israel into the Holy Land or brought down the walls of Jericho.

Repeated excavations of various expeditions have only yielded disappointments. During the period when the conquest would have taken place , there were no cities there and of course no walls to bring down.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/575168.stm

[djmcmath]

Mr. Herzog holds to a position we refer to as "biblical minimalism." It is largely based on ignoring large segments of evidence. For example, the extreme minimist position, in refuting the existence of Jesus in its entirety, is forced to exlude the widely accepted (and utterly secular) writings of Josephus and Tacitus -- both major historians. In fact, you'll find that you have to discard rather a lot of archaeology to discount the core historical events of the Biblical account.

The other common entertainment that biblical minimalists take part in is playing with the dates. They argue that David and Solomon could not have existed, because in the time period that they hold the David and Solomon should have existed, the excavation doesn't show anything of the significance described in the Bible. They fail to mention any of the evidence found from time periods which might fall outside their narrow blinders, but they do produce the conclusion they seek.

Um, so, yes, if you discard any evidence that suggests the Bible is true, then you're left with no evidence supporting the Bible. Good work, Mr. Herzog! I love these guys; I'd be bored stiff without this kind of fun.


Dan

[666]

You make a good point.

[666]

St. Athanasius warns us, " If we understand sacred writings according to the letter, we fall into the most enormous blasphemy by ascribing cruelty and falsehood to the Deity", which is precisely what organized religion has done.

Most people, even most fundamental Christians, will acknowledge that some of the Bible is symbol. At the same time they will take other text literally.

You simply cannot do that. Either everything is historical or nothing is. Christians will pick and choose the stories that make up the foundation of their beliefs and claim they are literal. Things such as the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection.

On the other hand they will read the writings of other mythologists who write of Pegasus, and Medussa etc. and declare them as fairy tales.

To them the adventures of Hare Krishna are fairy tales but virgin births, talking snakes, and resurrections from the dead are very very real.

All of this Disney like material has unfortunately become the basis of everlasting blood baths which are going on at the very moment that you are reading this page.



So, how do you accept the bible as truth when it tells you not too?


2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter but of the spirit for the letter kills but the spirit gives life.


Psalms 78:21 I will open my mouth in a parable. I will utter dark sayings of old, which we have heard and known and our fathers have told us.


Proverbs 1:6 To understand a proverb and the interpretation, the words of the wise and their dark sayings.


Matthew 13:34-35 All these things spoke Jesus to the multitude in parables and without a parable spoke not he unto them.


Acts 7:48 The most high dwells not in temples made with hands.


How many churches are made w/o hands?


Luke 17:21 The Kingdom of God is within you.


And I was told that it was in the heavens.


Romans 2:29 He is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter.


This one is my favorite.

[djmcmath]

You make some great points, 666. I'll certainly admit that any compromise on the historical nature of the biblical text makes for a slope more slippery than removing weight from your 911. You're dead-on right.

Therefore, I pick a position called "strict literalist." (There are other names: "stodgy old fool" and "stubborn fundamentalist curmudgeon" come to mind...) The gist of it is to interpret all of the historical bits literally. The position does recognize that there are poetic and figurative bits -- Jesus' parables, the Psalms, virtually all of Paul's writings ... but the idea is that some of the Bible was clearly written as historical descriptions of what happened.

Of course, since I'm a right-wing nut-case wacko, I also believe that the stories are applicable to today. Take John 4, 'coz it's like "Sex and the City," except instead of New York, it's Samaria. Jesus meets this chick and says "Woman, you're a slut, and you sleep around too much. That'll never make you happy -- you'll always be 'thirsty' for more! What you need is _me_!" (Read it! That's what it says! ...Almost...) In the same way, figuratively, today, guys like me are dumb enough to chase after women in our fast cars, hoping for happiness, when God has clearly shown us true happiness in His Son -- literally. So it's like a literal account of Jesus making a figure of speech. Crazy.

Was that confusing enough?

(sigh)

Either way, it's your choice. Like Joshua said, "Choose this day whom you will serve." I'm not here to make the choice for you, and I wouldn't want to. If you'd rather I demonstrate hermeneutical analysis of each of those verses, in context, we can do that, too. I won't bother with that unless you pick some verses yourself -- copy-n-paste from hiddenmeanings.com doesn't count.

Dan

[666]

Damn, busted.

Yeah, I'd like to discuss this stuff if you're interested. I'm not here to call names are make anyon seem like a fool.

There is no right path that I can see from any religion or church.

I'm off from work and won't be back for a week.