2 crashes on same runway in 3 minutes

Tim Hancock · 01-10-2005, 11:23 AM

Seeing the c130 crash thread reminded me of a bad day at a fly-in I used to host at my home strip. This happened a couple years ago, thankfully no-one was injured too badly. My wife and I decided to stop having this event due to fear of getting sued.

This home built retractable gear 1/2 scale Corsair came in hot and the guy panicked and rode the brakes too hard and went over on his nose HARD. While we were helping free him, another idiot in an ultralight decided to try to land short of the incedent and he got too low over the ditch at the runway threshold. He clipped his gear off on the ditch bank and stopped in about twenty feet.

Soon we had the rescue squad and highway patrol all over the place. The feds decided that this was a landing incident so luckily they did not come out to drag us thru the muck.

The 79 year old Corsair pilot was hospitilized for a few days w/ cracked ribs and facial lacerations. The Ultralight guy was not injured, allthough I wanted to injure him.

You can see both in the last photo if you look closely.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

Is that a VW engine in the ultralight?

Tim Hancock · 01-10-2005, 03:04 PM

Yes Thom, that is a full VW which actually should put this in the Experimental category but this guy is not too bright and is lucky he did not get into any trouble. This "ultralight" was a Minimax which was originally design for a single lung 2 stroke. Eventually people started hanging 2 cylinder 2 strokes then 2 cyl VW's (they cut the front two cylinders off then mount a prop flange where the crank pulley used to be) on them. I built one that is enclosed and has a 447 Rotax snowmobile engine on it.

Dantilla · 01-10-2005, 04:35 PM

What a great airstrip.

When I was a kid my dad flew out of the local grass strip. Landing in Grandma's front pasture- Now that's flying.

304065 · 01-10-2005, 06:15 PM

Two go-arounds could have saved much embarrasment and pain. And it's GRASS, for crying out loud! (Nice grass, by the way, a lot nicer than my home field) The deceleration rate is very high, why not stick the tail with aft elevator and wait!

Having said that I'm glad nobody got seriously hurt . . . we're all one landing away from a humbling experience.

bluebullet · 01-10-2005, 06:19 PM

wow that corsair looked really nice. Such a shame it got beat up.

Joeaksa · 01-10-2005, 07:13 PM

Agree with John but pilots are not in the mode of "going around" when in landing approach. They tend to concentrate on getting down and some forget that you can usually get a second chance at things. If you are not stable and under good control on final do a missed and try again...

Glad no one was hurt. Let us Aeronca/Citab taildragger pilots come there for a fly-in and bet it would be a lot more fun!

JoeA

Tim Hancock · 03:54 AM

The guy with the Corsair project had some time in Corsairs during Korea (not in combat). He spent 15 yrs building this thing. He was 79 yrs old at the time he did this. He had just finished flying his test time and he was accustomed to landing at a local airport with a wide, long paved runway. I doubt he had landed at a "small grass strip" in years even in his old 172. He came in hot (my guess is about 90 mph) and set it on it's main gear smoothly just past the threshold (this left him with at least 2400' of runway to stop on). I think he panicked and stomped on the binders hard! We found skid marks for about 50' before
the prop strikes started showing up in the grass. He admitted later that the view ahead looked alot different than what he was accustomed to at his long paved strip, he admitted he screwed up big time.

The funny thing is, is that if he had never touched the brakes he would have stopped after only using about half of my 2500' runway. Last I heard he is repairing the plane.

I fly into 1500' strips with my Pacer with no issues as do many of my flying buddies. This guy just had too little recent flying time and probably did not have the same mental edge he once had.

The guy in the ultralight could have landed past the incident safely or if he had any sense at all he could have landed on the north/south 2300' strip that intersects our E/W strip (did I mention that his "ultralight" has no brakes and that there was about 250' between the Corsair that was surrounded by about twenty people and the end of the runway he was trying to land on!). The guy is just a moron. He asked me if I would fix his wreck and I just laughed and basically told him to "go pound sand"!

John and Joe, not that there is much chance of you flying in my neck of the woods, but if you do, be sure to stop in to talk P-cars and planes. I am about 20 SW of Toledo (TOL) and my strip is called Eickmeier (OH02, which will probably not show up in your GPS databases) 2300' N/S & 2500' E/W on the Detroit sectional.

Pete Pranger · 01-21-2005, 05:04 PM

Tim,

I'm sorry to "hijack" your thread, but i was wondering if you might be able to help.

I am trying to decide on the engine to use in the skybolt I am building and I have been out of GA for almost 10 years.

If you have the time or the interest to let me pick your brain a little I would appreciate it.

TIA

Pete

Tim Hancock · 01-22-2005, 03:28 PM

Pete, I do not know anyone around here with a Skybolt, I would guess 150hp Lyc O-320 as a minimum. Lyc O-360 (180-200hp) is probably a pretty safe bet. Maybe someone has installed a 6 cyl Lycoming on one by now. I do not know. What kind of engine mount/s are called out on the plans. Look around on the web and maybe you will find some info. I think you can still call the EAA and ask for homebuilders assistance.

I think Steen Aero Lab owns the rights to the Skybolt, they surely would be able to give you some suggestions.

If you find that six cylinder Lycomings are being used, due to supply and demand, you could probably build one up for the same price as a O-360 (runout engine around 6-9k then around 8-10k to have it overhauled or 5-8k to DIY depending on condition).

Good luck, I will be away from a computer for the next 4 days.

Pete Pranger · 01-22-2005, 03:52 PM

Thanks for the help.

Steen advises an IO-540 and of course I could bolt one of those in and go. But, I was thinking of doing something a little more, well, different.

First off, the 540 is still a fair amount of cash, but I could most likely find something I like for what I want to spend.

Second, I am looking for somewhere around 250-300hp I know it's more than I "need" but ...........

Thirdly I am looking to add a little bit of a modern touch with a custom EFI/distributorless ignition system.

One other thing I am considering is a "smaller" engine (less than 540) and adding a turbocharger. For this reason I am looking for an engine with intake on the top and exhaust on the bottom (ala continental, I don't recall ever seeing a lycoming with this configuration...did they?).

I know that this is different, but for me the journey is where the fun is. If I wanted to take the "easy" route, I would just buy an airplane or just enjoy what I get paid to fly. I spent nearly 10 years wrenching on "certificated" airplanes and I am convinced it can be done better (won't start when it's hot, won't start when it's cold, just dump more fuel in there, it might even help keep the valves cool). I don't want to "reinvent" the wheel, I just want to cross over some of the technology that is out there.

I realize this may not be your bag, and that's cool, but any insight you have will be appreciated.

BTW due to liability concerns, steen isn't too helpful here, but they are wonderful people to work with for everything else.

Pete

Tim Hancock · 01-22-2005, 04:21 PM

Gosh Pete, other than the aluminum block v8's, I do have any suggestions. I do not know of any Lycomings w/ the intake on top.

I like all the innovation in the homebuilding movement and I routinely fly behind VW's and Snowmobile engines. I am presently building a One Design (DR-107) from scratch and I have purchased a Lyc IO-360 that I am going to overhaul and put in it. For my purpose built aerobatic airplane, I wanted a proven performer. I worry about the reduction drives with gyroscopic forces coming into play on conversions. These auto engines have to run at a higher continous rpm than they were designed for, so I worry about longevity.

I do not know much when it comes to turbocharging, but typically as I am sure you know, turbochargers on certified aircraft do not "boost" at low altitude, rather they try to mainain pressure as altitude increases.

Running high boost at low altitude on a normal aircraft engine may not last to long. Even with better fuel control and stronger ignition, I do not think you could get away with much boost. (like I said though I am no expert in this area)

How about a turbo prop (probably not the best for how a biplane flys)?

304065 · 01-22-2005, 04:28 PM

Hmm. . . I second Tim's concerns about going Turbo, particularly if you're going to fly acro-- the widely changing power settings and airspeeds will play havoc with the boost-- can you visualize trying to set power going up the front side of a loop, then pulling it back on the backside? If you had electronic wastegate control, might be possible, but with aviation stuff . . . if it were ME flying it I'm sure I'd overboost it and blow all the engine oil out the breather!

How about a Russian Radial, like the Super Stinker?

304065 · 01-22-2005, 04:34 PM

MIX AIR TRIM PUMP LIGHTS BRAKES
READY TO COME ABOARD

Tim Hancock · 01-22-2005, 04:42 PM

John, it looks like a decent sized fly-in you are heading into there! No chute? Must of had a land lubber in the back w/ you!

304065 · 01-22-2005, 04:53 PM

Tim, would you believe those are the monthly tie-downs. Of course, half of them don't have engines and will never fly again. . . absentee owners, divorces, A/D's, etc. There's an old 310 hulk that the local punks have vandalized. . .the same delinquents who drive their ATV's across the grass, putting ruts in the runway. . .driving me purple with rage. . .

No chute that day, I only fly acro with my instructor.

Pete Pranger · 01-23-2005, 09:37 AM

Thanks for the input guys.

I have been thinking about this for a long time now, and I have considered almost (I think) everything.

There is no reasonable explanation for not wanting a factory IO-540 except i don't *want* to do it that way..........of course if all else fails, you know.

I considered and rejected an auto engine because:

1. From others experience they found it to be too ungainly in a somewhat "nimble" airplane.
2. I havent found a single reduction box that I like. Don't like belts or chain drives and the gear reduction systems are prohibitively expensive (nearly 10k).
3. This design would screw up the lines of the best looking bipe ever (IMHO).
4. Still can't get a viable fix for the radiator placement. A P-51 scoop just won't look good on my airplane.

Someday I will build a Lancair with a hot LS1/6, but not for this project.

Steen now makes plans to use the M14 radial (ala sukoi) but again they disturb the lines and at 50k plus acc, it's a little out of my league for this project.

Turbo prop? Glad I wasn't the only one sick enough to consider that route, but after driving a C207 w/allison 250 (soloy gearbox) I would want something bigger and although I can get a TPE-331 for a fair price, I don't think so.............

So, where does that leave me?

4 or 6 cyl air-cooled.

I am dead set on going EFI. I can no longer justify bendix injection and a carb is out of the question. I am equally offended that we still use those awful magnetos (okay maybe I'll run one just in case, but personally I don't see the need for it).

For weight alone, the 4cyl appeals to me, but the power is down a little from what I want (180/200 vs 275 ish) so whats a guy to do?

FORCED INDUCTION.

Okay with regard to (beep beep) I still think a centrifugal blower is a better choice in theory, but there are just too many issues (mounting, drive system, belt reliability) If I could just run it off my accessory gearbox (maybe where the mag used to be) then maybe.........

But for now, I think a turbo would be a neat idea. Yes, they are currently used to compensate at altitude, but that's not the only use. I have flown supercharged radials (R1830,2000,2800) so I know that it's possible BUT.......

Turbos have also come a long way and it's possible by matching housings and compressor maps to the desired results to get a very effective combination. That combined with a high quality adjustable wastegate I can tailor my turbo to the motor. I don't plan on competitive aerobatics in this thing (or else I would get an extra or something similar) maybe a 60/40 split X/C to inverted.

As far as my research has gone, I don't think boost is going to be an issue. I don't intend on putting just *any* turbo in here, but a specifically matched unit. On a street car the turbo has to deal with a nearly 6000rmp range, boost too early, crap on the top end, good top end, no power down low. But, I am only looking for a 2000rpm range, so I won't be asking the system to operate out of its best range. That combined with a constant speed prop the motor may never get out of boost. BTW I am only thinking maybe 8psi max.

As far as Lycoming vs Continental, I am a Lycoming fan, but it would be easier to fab an intake manifold on a Continental (port placement) so I am afraid I will be going that way (if I go this way). I have found a few IO-470s for around 6k and I can live with that.

So, am I nuts here? It may sound like I have made my mind up, but I am still very much in the planning phase here. Any thoughts and advice is welcome.

Pete

Joeaksa · 01-23-2005, 10:07 AM

Tim,

Would love to come down to your area someday. It would be a long haul in the Aeronca and the Challenger I fly for a living needs 5000 foot of hard surface. I do make it to the Dayton/Middleton area every two years for the Aeronca fly-in and thats not that far away.

Agree with John and like some of the Polish and Russian radials. Nothing like the sound of a round engine!

Joe A

304065 · 01-23-2005, 05:16 PM

M14's 50K plus? I thought they were closer to 25, and eight for the prop?

lendaddy · 01-23-2005, 06:01 PM

My dad has a grass runway at his place as well. I witnessed one ultralite crash there myself. Guy stalled from maybe 60' on landing and dropped like a stone. Was kinda funny cause he didn't get hurt but his plane was pretty messed up. It was funny cause my dad was also watching and cussing the guy out for coming in so slow. He just kept saying "he's gonna drop".

Another "brainiac" needed some more gas to get home but everyone was out. Soooo he looks at myb MX'er in the back of my truck and says "got any gas for that thing?" I said yea, but I'm sure it's mixed way too lean for you. He didn't care and filled her up and flew away!!!! I **** you not, this guy had a half roll of duct tape holding his "craft" together. Any desire I had to fly was gone after meeting some of these tools. My father is also out of it now though he does own some hangers on an airport still. I can think of better hobbies myself