350HP930,

I think the important question to ask about the Irq war is what percentage of the population appreciates the US efforts and desires democracy vs. what percentage are the "terrorists". I suppose to some degree we'll have a more clear picture after Sunday's election, if a good percentage of the population actually takes place in a democratic election the case could be made that they support democracy. I do not doubt that many Iraqis long for the day that we will leave but is that longing a hatred of the US and it's policies or is it a strong desire to once again be a completely sovereign nation without the need for US security. I also do not doubt that are very presence is somewhat responsible for these terrorist attacks but I also believe we need to stay long enough the give those who want to be free a chance. South Korea and Japan are poor examples, we are in those countries at the pleasure of their governments both of which are US allies. If and when Iraq becomes a stable democracy they may allow the US to maintain bases within their country to promote stability in the region as well as protection to augment their own security forces. I do stand by what I said about casualities, the liberal media blows the bodycount WAY out of purportion. To hear them tell it you'd think we were losing thousands of soldiers a day in bloody battles against a strong military force, the truth is the terrorists are more of a nuciance than anything else. We could easily play Saddam and just roll through towns leveling everything in our way but that wouldn't help accomplish the goal now would it.

Supe,

Sure large parts of the world are liberal, it's funny that they are not military or economic superpowers either. The part of me that is conservative is conservatism at it's most pure, that is keep government out of my life and my wallet and protect me from those that wish to take away my freedom. Perhaps this is even a Libertarian point of view. "Give me liberty or give me death" what would they say about modern America where I work half the year to pay the government, slavery in disquise I say. We need a government to keep basic order and protect our homeland, sometimes that means fighting on foreign soil.

In Sadam's home town of Turkirk sic the US Amb to Iraq expects 40% of possible voters to vote. Most US elections are below that. The last US Pres election was a very mobilized vote of 60%.

They expect a possible 60% vote in Iraq overall.

if these Iraq #'s come to pass then not only does Iraq's population win, but the US President wins. If the US President wins then the US President's haters lose..

I don't think Ted Kennedy will congragulate the President with a handshake?

If George is right, and Iraq becomes a free and democratic beacon in the ME, liberty spreads across the globe, and terrorism is defeated, then we all win - though I will have lost an argument(and look quite the fool). I'll dance right alongside you - the conversation might go like this:

Ronin: "Did you support Bush?"

Me: "Nope"

Ronin: "Dumbass!"

Me: "Dumbass? Man, you have no idea. I drank the kool-aid, wore the tin-foil - the whole shebang. Can I buy ya a pitcher?"

At least, I hope it goes that well. Would you let me buy the beer, Ronin? After it's all over? Hope so. :)

If George screwed the pooch, I'll let you buy. We're gonna wanna get drunk. :(

Yes, if this Iraq thing, and our apparent agenda to bludgeon additional countries whose political agendas are not pleasing to us, if this stuff lives up to the promises I read here and world peace descends upon the planet, then I'll admit freely and humbly that Dubya is the most brilliant tactician and strategist in American political history. Yeah, right. I think I'm safe from the danger of this happening.

Christian, I'm not going to tear into you regarding my disdain for folks who think "freedom" means freedom from taxes. Taxes which are necessary for a wide variety of reasons including our Christian and moral responsibility to help take care of those less fortunate, and sometimes far less fortunate, than ourselves. Greed is really sexy these days. I'm not impressed. And if your tax rate is 50%, then you're using something other than the IRS tax tables.

Yes, many countries lack military. And I'll buy the argument that someone needs to have a strong military that is bent on world welfare, so these other countries can enjoy their peace. But I also notice that some of those countries have some of the highest standards of living on the planet. Socialism works, until you pretend that socialism and soviet communism are the same thing. That's a lie.

A friend recently said, and it was an epiphany for me, that some folks do not want to share, and that is why socialism just won't work as a national political policy. In each society, there is a group who wants to live together in harmony, and in cooperation and in Christian charity (even if they are pagans like my hippie friends). And then there is a group that wants none of that. They will pursue greed and have no intention of sharing. There is a political party in my country for those people, and greed is really valued right now. I'm embarrassed for those people, but my friend's point is that socialism will not work as a national policy for this reason. I have seen socialism and Christian charity work like magic. Unfortunately, it has been my pagan hippie friends who have performed the otherwise Great Untried Social Experiment that Jesus described to us. He said we could have a kind of Heaven on Earth, and I've seen it. He was right. But He also said he did not come here so much to convert, as to separate the flock.

Choose your flock.

I don't care who fixes the prob. I don't care if he walks around on his fingers all day. War is war. You either believe we're at war or you don't. If someone says he believes we're at war and then acts contrary to any war logic it makes me wonder.

Does anyone believe a 4yr old when he says he can cross the street all by himself? Does anyone believe that the theories of war has suddenly changed since WTC?

Gangsters, warlords, mobsters, murderers.. call them anything you want, it's the same shet. Is a gangster in townA gonna go kiss the cops in TownB when they jail their local crook? Is Syria gonna run and give kisses to US soldiers after Iraq is a done deal?

Should your local church minister be in charge of finding the local rapist killer or do you want the meanest smartest most impatient guy in town to be in charge?

as long as I'm on a roll here.. Those spineless jello ass hole Congressional Reps have yet to take charge. They'll follow Bush if they have to, but that's it. They are wimps in doing anything themselves.. They're afraid to "disturb" their voters by starting any action in Congress that will ruffle the feathers of the Dems or other Reps..

Tax Reform?
"Huh! Duh, it's ok that Congress's Joint Tax Committee is always wrong. It don't matter that capital gains tax rates have become dynamically modeled for projections. Really, the Rep voters understand if we static model them 'cause they're stupid and will believe us. Ways and Means can just start another investigative committee so it'll look like we know what's happening. They gotta believe us because we're the Reps, right? Bush is busy elsewhere so we can just hang out and have a circle jerk. Hey you, Bill Thomas, keep look'en out the door to make sure Bush isn't sneaking up on us. Dam, if we have to produce credibility we're All in trouble."

Freedom from tyranny...

Who defines what?

Geesh....Same old tired rationale for the war, against the war.

Some folks don't like the following, but there is some validity..

There is your side of the story, his side of the story and somewhere in between is the truth.

Re: Is media bias a liberal myth?
 

Very simple perspective shift, isn't it?

What is your point? You can change a couple of words and make the Emancipation Proclamation a proslavery speech too. What would that prove? I cannot imagine that anyone would honestly attempt to make such a connection....How could one compare murderers who torture and murder their own women and children with folks in the resistance against Hitler? Sorta like making a comparison between Jeffery Dahmer and an ordinary bloke having a meal...after all..both are eating...

You are aware that the french resistance did commit terrorist acts against french civilians who collaberated with the nazis, right fint?

I guess that made their entire cause wrong then, didn't it?

To quote one of the leaders of the french resistance . . .

Makes no sense to me. The french resistance and "french civilians who collaborated against the nazis" were on the same side. Why would one kill the other? Better recheck your facts.

Whoops, typo fixed, now you can let your cognitive dissonance kick in.

You would have assumed from my quote you could have figured there was a typo in my post.

Even with youyr correction...it make no sense to me. Seems to me that there is a big difference between those who called for "execution of those responsible for the crime" of "assassination of any French patriot" and terrorists randomly blowing up innocent civilians to make a point. I cannot understand how you see them as similar.

Iraqi Police stations, Iraqi Army recruitment stations, US Army checkpoints are "innocent civilians"? Yes, they do also bomb Iraq leaders and various other targets. These guys don't want elections nor a stable US led government. Get it?
They want us out and then to let the chips fall where they may, most likely a Muslim Extremists Cleric government.

Geoff

No, but reporters, aid workers, and ordinary people in schools and mosques are clearly innocent civilians. Even a police station is a civilian target....Would you condone blowing up a Police station, a civilian leader...or a Mosque in the US because you do not agree with the govt? Boy anti-war folks sure have some violent ideas/sympathies. Sounds a lot like Tim McVeigh did.

Supe, The American Revolution was a tax revolt against the British. The tax rate was something like 10 percent. Sure there were many other reasons for the revolt but taxes was a biggie. Now let examine our paychecks for a minute, I take home about 70 percent of what I make after I've paid Federal, State, Local, SS, Medicare etc. Now once I have that money I get the privilege of paying sales tax on everything I buy, gasoline, liscense and insurance tax for my cars, real estate tax on my home, taxes on most utilities coming into that home, if I buy cigarettes or alcohol I pay an additional tax. The amount I can earn is reduced in part by the taxes my company must pay as part of the overhead of running a business. Some days I feel like a tax slave, let's take last week for example. I went down to the local grocer at lunch to get a loaf of bread and lunch meat for my lunches at work, I get in line behind a rather well dressed woman with a tacky amount of gold jewelry (might have been fake, I can't tell) and a cart load of groceries, she whips out the welfare card and the wic card and pays basically nothing for the groceries, then comes the two cartons of cigs, case of beer, two bottles of cognac, she whips out a wad of cash, peels a hundred off the top and pays for the stuff that welfare won't cover. Meanwhile I make a decent salary and am the sole supporter of my family, I've got 10 buck in my pocket to buy my lunch for the week, how do you think I felt? It's gets a little better though, on the way out of the store I see her loading up the back of a relatively new Caddy while the jerk male in the drivers seat can't even bother to help as he's talking on his cellphone. Do I not have the right to feel a little abused by the tax system at this point. Is it greedy to think that people my tax dollars are supporting should have to struggle like I do from time to time. I see this all the time and I wonder why welfare can't be set up to encourage the able to work instead of encouraging them to sit on their butts and collect a check. There is a line between helping the less fortunate and perpetuating the welfare state and I believe we crossed it years ago.

As for choosing my flock, i contribute what I cn to charity, put money in the basket when I go to church, give money or time to friends in need, my wife volunteers at my daughter's school. Suggesting I'm greedy because I feel the tax laws are ridiculous is outright wrong. I don't blame the woman in the checkout line, I blame the screwed up system we have.