o/t- patent, anyone ever apply for one
 

i know this is off topic but has anyone here ever applied for a patent? ive got an idea and working model of something i want to put through the process and need some basic advice if any. thanks in advance.

Any 911 content? If not, you can kiss this thread goodbye.

Most people in the know will tell you that a patent is an expensive waste of time and any big company can rip you off whenever they feel like it. Do you care to go to court to defend your patent each time this happens?

There is some good reading about the many ways to protect your ideas and/or market them w/o ever seeing a patent attorney. One thing you can do yourself is file for the patent to obtain a "patent pending" status if you must go the patent route.

I'll tell the the secret words of successful inventors. "License to manufacture for an advance on royalties." Anyone who has been down this road (I have, and it cost me dearly) knows the wisdom in those words. Good luck.

I've applied for several and have been rewarded several .

You will need to find an attorney that specializes in the industry of the device/method/idea that you're trying to patent.

may not be cheap , though. And keep in mind, a patent can be filed for almost anything, i can try and patent a piece of lint and the attorney would be more than happy to write up a 10 page description, application, submit it, and charge me a fee.....so anybody can file a patent about anything, just make sure you get the right attorney who can capture your idea the best they can.

great advice guys, thanks. that will get me going in the right direction. i use a piece of equipment at work and have found an attatchment i have made, adds a new dimention or function to the original piece of equipment.to give you an idea its cuts my machine use time in half. i usally use this piece of equipment on average 4 to 6 hours a day. if the patent doesnt sell i at least save my company probably 400.00 dollar min a day.

As i UNDERSTAND it you have to renew tha lisence every year too$$

watch yourself fred....if you invent something at work, it may become the property of the people you work for...

I don't even get an attaboy...

check your employee handbook, or talk to your HR person.

sjd

I'll make this as short as I can...

I am going to assume that you are not a rookie in the business world. With that said:

If your idea has the potential for substantial dollars to be made you are going to entering into a very unscrupulous world. You will need all the lessons you've learned, intuition and knowledge to be able to benefit from your patent. You've got to be a shrewd SOB.

I recommend the following: Do your homework and get the proper documents to submit your patent. Homework will include a "Patent Search" which anyone can do with diligence.

Once you have determined that your product meets the requirements for submittal, do so as soon as you can. Time and dates are a trail for protection. However, Patents are time limited so be ready to move.

It's going to take time for the patent office to review and render a decision and correspond back to you on any issues related to your documentation.

I also suggest that you submit any and all variations of your idea that could be deemed patentable. I.E., say someone made slight changes to your idea thus opening up the door to piggy back your idea. You must be shrewd and try to catch ALL angles. I repeat ALL angles.

Once you have saturated yourself in frustration and patience is thinning, stay on track. You must get documents in your hand. This is a line of protection.

Once done, seek out an attorney that is knowledgeable in patents. They will no doubt be able to assist you in the next steps as to contacts in the business world and protect you from the language designed not to benefit you.

Get references on any and all business contacts. Get them yourself. Remember the name of the game is MONEY and this brings out a lot of questionable business practices.

Remember, once your idea is out IT"S OUT. If viable it'll attract all kinds of businesses... some not ethical...

Hope this helps...

Good luck

wow, even more great advice keep it coming. i work for my father, family owned business, matter of fact its my dad pushing me on this, he thinks a great invention.well see. were in the asphalt paving business and this divice i came up with cuts out hugh time in my day to day operation. ive never seen or heard of this thing ive made being used by anyone else.im more in the mind set of selling the patent(after i get one) to one of the five companys that manufacture the original piece of equipment im using. this board is awsome on almost any topic.great members. thanks

You might want to run a patent search to make sure your idea isnt already patented ($500). To have an attorney get a patent for you, its probably going to cost in the neighborhood of $10,000. Upkeep for the next 17(?) years isnt that much.

I had an idea, took it to a patent attorney, and he told me "look this is a cool idea, but dont bother with the patent because if its successful the big companies can change one itsy bitsy little thing and rip you off easily." Cool attorney.

Meanwhile that attorney patented your idea and made $$$$$..

That's like saying "don't ever seek a patent on any potentially successful product"......

BTW, the patent office is one of the more successful gov't agencies taking in hundreds of millions anually. They processed 355,400 applications in 2003 approving half. For 2005, they expect to take in 1.5 billion. They are adding something like 1600 new patent examiners to meet the needs for this year.

Here is the source of that info. A good and timely read. I don't know if it goes on to say, but VERY few patents ever result in making any money, especially for the inventor.

The most likely source of any money is the the manufacturer of the machine that the device is for. And they will try to say they already have that idea on file. Like he said, the world of patents is not for the uninitiated.

For the device you describe, a patent is probably a good way to go. For novelty items, time is of the esscence. Copyrights on packaging and any instructions or text, plus trademarks will get you in the game with enough protection to go to market.

I don't know if there is a patent for the Pet Rock (how could you patent a rock??), but the idea is heavily protected in name and package design. And all of that was immediate. Patents take many months, if not years to complete. The next guy with a rock to sell as a companion was left with "companion stone." (Or was that stoned companion?) In a sack, yet, not a box. Doesn't cut it. (Even that might have been too close.)

Pet rock, funny i went to grade school with the pet rock guy's daughter, he made truckloads on that, then lost all those truckloads all on this next big thing, which was so big no one remembers what it was.

I have 20 patents, and yes the vast majority have and will never directly generate money. patents are mostly something that established companies use to prevent entry of new companies into a given market. Each established company cross licences with all the others (they are all usually violating each other's patents). No one else can enter the market because they would be facing the wrath of all. So most ot the patents indirectly make money by gain access to other companies patents thru cross licenses.

do the initial patent search yourself here:
http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-adv.htm
the database only goes back to 1976, but its a good start

you can also go the non-disclosuer route. basically set up a meeting with the company you want to sell too. have them sign a legal document that they cannot disclose or use anything you show to them (that they don't already know) without your approval. This ends up being as good as a patent because unless they can prove they had been working on your idea, they can't do anything with it. If they can prove they had been working on it, in the US that would invalidate you patent anyway (US is first to invent, most of the rest of the world is first to file).

good luck,
jason

I applied for one over a year and a half ago and have yet to hear back. They're pretty jammed at the USPTO. A friend ofmine who is an inventor (he has med tech patents but made his money on the "banana hanger" that sits on your countertop to hang bunches of bananas to keep them from bruising-!) told me that a patent is essentially worthless these days, as it costs so much to defend them if you do get it. He said the best thing to do is apply, which is nearly free, get the "patent pending" protection and then produce your product ASAP. You just have to get 'way out in front of anyone else who copies you (the "razor" scooter is a good example- there are dozens of copies now, that are not EXACTLY a Razor but are essentially the same thing, but Razor was first and made good use of their lead time. Hope this helps-
Cheers!

First let me tell you a story.
One of our family friends was an engineering manager for GE Appliance Park in Louisville. He invented the self-cleaning oven. All of the other oven manufacturers jumped in and built self cleaning ovens and just let GE sue them. Maintaining market share was far more valuable than any award.

I was close to the same situation. I went through the whole process and the manufacturers were IBM, HP, TI, and many others. My patient attorney had me get non-disclosure agreements from several of my banking friends. The plan was to license it to perhaps #3 in the industry and have them defend the patent (my pockets weren’t deep enough to fight IBM.) HP had their application in a week before mine and documented working on it longer. I was only our about $1K but it was worth it.

Over the years I have given Porsche K. –G. and Porsche A.G. and VW-Porsche Vertriebgesellschaft mbH ideas that probably were patientable.

Best,
Grady

Interesting thread. I'm sure many here have been through this.

I designed a few Auto items and went both to a Patent Agent and Patent Attorney. Long story short, after a review the attorney told me to put it out on the market and make as much money, as quickly as possible.

Also, many ideas, good or not, are too generic to patent or can be changed easily enough to get around your field description. (As mentioned by others)

Think about the "Bobby pin". By putting a wave in the standard straight hair pin of the day a totally new patent was realized. Plus it worked better. It's that simple.

Well, I am a patent attorney and have been doing this for about 15 years, so I might be able to add something here.

First, there is a lot of information on patents at the USPTO website (www.uspto.gov) so I won't rehash it all here. There is even a special section to deal with independent inventors who want to file an application. You can also do a search at the USPTO website of issued US patents and published US applications.

WHAT IS A PATENT?

One thing most people do not understand is that a patent is NOT a right to do anything, it is RIGHT TO EXCLUDE OTHERS. You can have an improvement on something that is already patented by another and simply because you get a patent on the improvement does not mean that you have a right to make your improved version of the product. If it is a significant improvement, you will probably be able to come to some contractual arrangement with the patent owner of the original device to market the improved version or else you have to wait until the underlying patent expires.


STEP 1: FIND A PATENT ATTORNEY TO HELP YOU

If it is worth filing a patent on, it is worth having someone do it right. The scope of the protection your patent gives you is defined by the claims. Writing the claims is an art in itself. Arguments and amendments made in prosecution (the written correspondence you have with the patent office) can be deadly to the enforceable scope of the claims ("prosecution history estoppel"). You can shoot yourself in the foot here without even knowing it. Big firms are not necessarily any more expensive than the mom and pop firms and are likely to have someone with expertise in your area. There is no point in paying someone to learn your technical field if there is somebody already with the knowledge.

STEP 2: BEFORE DRAFTING AN APPLICATION, DO A SEARCH

I heartily agree with the earlier comment about getting a patent search done. You can do a quickie search yourself but don't rely on it. Have the search done by a search company (there are several in the DC area) and review the results. Plan on spending about $1,000 for it to encompass both the US and foreign patent literature as well as the commercial and technical literature. Get copies of the stuff that looks the closest to your idea and then bring it to your patent attorney to look at with you. It is a lot cheaper for you to do the legwork than the lawyer. Your understanding of what is taught in the literature ("the prior art") is not necessarily accurate.

STEP 3: THINK BEFORE YOU LEAP!

Understand that you will not be able to enforce your patent until the patent ISSUES. From the time you first file your application, you will likely not receive a patent for at least one year and likely longer (assuming that your invention is patentable!) 2-3 years is not uncommon even in the simple mechanical arts. You can "petition to make special" to expedite prosecution. Your patent APPLICATION will "publish" 18 months from the first filing date. Under the revised law, you can begin to accrue damages against an infringer (that you sue successfully once your patent issues).

So, if this is a short term idea, the market may be gone by the time you can actually get a patent to enforce. Is the technology moving so fast that your idea is going to be outdated in two years -- the technology will be outdated by the time you get your patent and nobody will care if you have a patent or not.

The expenses in preparing and prosecuting a patent application can vary a whole bunch. If you have a relatively simple application it can be filed for only a couple thousand dollars. The filing fee at the USPTO for a "provisional application" is very low ($160.00) last I checked. However, the "prosecution" (ie arguing with the patent office) can be very prolonged and there is no way to predict this. Sometimes you get a good examiner who is very reasonable. Sometimes you get an examiner who is stubborn and it takes a long time. I would plan on spending at least $10,000 for the US application and a relatively simple prosecution.

However, probably the biggest expense is if you plan to see patent protection in foreign countries. Filing in the United States as your first (priority) application gives you one year until you need to either file the foreign national or a PCT application. The only advantage of the PCT over the national applications is that it delays the enormous cost of entering the "National Phase" up to 30 months from your first filing date (everything in patent law is about dates). You have to do foreign translations at this point and this can be whompin' expensive. The Japanese translators charge about $250/page for translations. So if you have a 20 page application, you are out $5000 just for the Japanese translation, then you have the filing fees at the JPO, the Japanese associate fees (another couple thousand) so you can spend an additional $10K just to file in Japan. Multiply that by a bunch of countries plus the annual maintenance fees and you can really rack up the dollars in foreign applications.

LICENSING:

This is not for the novice either. It is not uncommon that negotiations for a patent license will extend for many months. Unfortunately, I have never been able to get anybody to agree to a nice form license agreement. So, you will need professional help even in the licensing stage.

BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS ABOUT THE CONFIDENTIAL DISCLOSURE BIT. The fact that you disclose an invention to someone with the opportunity to purchase the invention even under obligations of confidentiality does not mean that the invention is published or known in the art, but you can trigger the "on sale" bar without even knowing it which can ruin your ability to get a patent in the US (if you wait) or overseas. It is always better to have an application on file (even a simple provisional) prior to having any discussions with a third party. Have your stake in the sand before you go out yapping with others.

Understand what the standard licensing terms in the industry are. You are not going to get 40% of the sales price of anything. Most companies run on a much smaller margin. The licensee cannot give you more than his profit margin and is not going to give you much of that. I would say that the royalty you might receive will be in the single digits as a percentage of total sales and likely less than five percent (if you get a good deal). So, just because your licensee sells $10MM/year of your product, you are probably not going to get a royalty check much more than a couple hundred thousand.


ENFORCEMENT:

Are you willing to file a lawsuit to enforce your rights? Is it even worthwhile? Depending on the complexity of a lawsuit (my field is biotechnology so it gets really complex fast), you will plan on spending at least $1.0MM to enforce the patent through trial. I was involved in a matter where my budget was $3.0M for the first three months (and that was many years ago). However, if you have a great idea (like the intermittent windshield wiper patent litigation), some firms will take it on a contingency basis. unless you are going to file a lawsuit to enforce your rights you might want to reconsider your idea.

If you have a mechanical device, likely someone in Southeast Asia is going to manufacture it and sell it somewhere else (including the US). Can you even sue them for infringement? Who can you sue -- the distributor? What if they sell it in the US over the Web? Can you get jurisdiction over the foreign party? A US patent is only enforceable in the United States. If someone in Japan is making it and selling it in Europe, a US patent doesn't give you any right to sue someone overseas. If you want to enforce your patent overseas, you need foreign patents (see comments above about costs). And, if you think US litigation is difficult, just wait until you try it in some foreign countries.

SO, the bottom line is that this a very complex matter and will largely be determined by the facts of your situation. If nothing else, I would just write off a thousand dollars and just go talk to a patent attorney about the specifics of your idea. It is the only way to try to figure out if something is worthwhile or not. It will be money well spent. Example: I'm a lawyer, my wife is a lawyer, half my friends are lawyers, my father in law is a lawyer, my brother in law is a lawyer, but when we came to California and looke to buy our house, WE STILL HIRED A LAWYER. We probably spent about $1000 out of our own pocket but he saved us many many times his fee.

Do it before you tell your friends, before you do a confidentiality agreement, etc.

Rich

ok, i am sorta in the same situation. but my sister is a patent attorney so i got some advice. she said the very first step is to log onto the website ( i dont have the exact website on hand, but it ends in an ".org") and to check whether the damn widget has been applied for yet. if yes, kick yourself and wonder out loud, why you didnt get off your ass faster.

then you go from there.....
as soon as i talk to her later, i will post the website. anyone looking for an attorney, she is the hardest working human i know.

US patent and trademark office:
http://www.uspto.gov/

search link on the left

jason