Crazy high pressure diesel fuel systems????

lendaddy · 02-22-2005, 05:27 AM

Anyone have semi-intimate knowledge of these systems? I have an industrial application I would like to prototype using some of these components. I need the high pressure(for atomized fluid delivery of a semi-viscous fluid). The injectors would be controled via simple PLC. This would be a working protoype, in production we would look into purpose built components.

Are there any electric diesel injection pumps or are they mechanically powered? I probably don't need anywhere near the full abilities of these diesel systems, but it strikes me as an abunant real-world test mule. FWIW the fluid is roughly the consistancy of vegetable oil. Any thoughts?

asphaltgambler · 02-22-2005, 06:44 AM

I have diesel experience. Whether the pump is manual or electric typical pressures to open the injectors @2500lb. Diesel fuel is a heavier viscosity than gasoline at room temp, it's a long way from the vicosity of vegatible oil.

lendaddy · 02-22-2005, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by asphaltgambler
I have diesel experience. Whether the pump is manual or electric typical pressures to open the injectors @2500lb. Diesel fuel is a heavier viscosity than gasoline at room temp, it's a long way from the vicosity of vegatible oil.

Yes I see your point, and we may have to go to a hydraulic pump. My theory was that these new diesel systems are fine at low low temps without block/fuel heaters. At sub zero temps, diesel gets aweful thick right?

RickM · RickM's Garage

Not to volunteer Juan...but he may be able to help as well.

"....I work for the largest manufactor of diesel engines in the world as a Field Service Engineer, I have spend the last 19 years of my life working on diesel engines from Race Diesel engines, locomotives,ships, earth moving equip.etc etc there's no one diesel application that I haven't got my hands on..."

asphaltgambler · 02-22-2005, 07:44 AM

No doubt that as temps get cooler diesel fuel viscosity increases mostly due to the impurities in the fuel. Petroleum manufacturers will tell you that there are sorts of conditioners and additives that they put in the fuel to prevent it.

When the outside temps hang around 15-20 degrees F you'd be suprised just how vegatible-like viscosity it gets.

lendaddy · 02-22-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by asphaltgambler

When the outside temps hang around 15-20 degrees F you'd be suprised just how vegatible-like viscosity it gets.

See that's what I'm saying. I just need to know that the system would function with a fluid of that viscosity. My application is industrial and hence 65-70 deg. F. all the time. Again, this is just for learning purposes and I'm not expecting to actually use these particular components in production.

Are you aware of any electric pumps? All I am finding are cam driven. I can surely adapt this, but if I don't have to, then all the better. Thanks.

asphaltgambler · 02-22-2005, 11:20 AM

It would depend on the volume needed. A cheap way is to buy a small mobile power washer for the pump /engine source. If you are looking at pressures 2000 and above the pumps are driven by small gasoline lawnmower type engines because most electric motors don't have enough torque.

turbo6bar · 02-22-2005, 01:42 PM

FWIW, some guys are running vegetable oil in their diesel engines. It must be preheated when it's really cold outside. @65-70 degrees F, you just might be able to run the oil straight.

J Smith · 02-22-2005, 02:40 PM

I have one of these new diesels - a Chevy Duramax. From what I understand, basically there are two fuel pumps. A low pressure and a high pressure, both are mechanically driven I think. The pressures are unreal, something like 3000 psi at idle, and can reach up to 25,000 psi at WOT. This is measured at the injectors. Some guys are having problems with premature injector failure, and one theory is that the fuel is not clean enough and is basically acting like a sandblaster when shot through the injector. I have added two additional fuel filters on my truck which hopefully is keeping things clean.

Ask your question here You'll get good answers from the experts.

lendaddy · 02-22-2005, 02:58 PM

Thanks guys. I don't need anywhere near those pressures. All I need to do is achieve atomization. All this will be is a mist delivery system. The beauty of the deal is the electronically controlled injectors which will allow measured and controlled distribution of the fluid. Now I'm wondering what PSI I will need to get atomization. Also, the volume will be tiny by comparison, maybe an ounce or two per hour. The idea is to be able to schedule and adjust blast duration and frequency via an integrated console.

Maybe I am missing a simpler method?

M.D. Holloway · 02-22-2005, 02:59 PM

I can get you some low temp flow improvers - they reduce the gel point and cold filter plugging down an extra 30 to 40 degrees. PM me.

Cat is now using very high pressure injection systems - upwards of 30,000 psi! For real!

Also, interesting article in Discover mag or Sci American (forget which) that talks about the use of ink jet technology for use in a whole buch of different applications - one is fuel injectors, go figuer.

lendaddy · 02-22-2005, 03:04 PM

Mike,

Forget where, but I also saw a deal VW is doing where the injectors will be their own high pressure pump. Neat stuff coming for sure. Thanks regarding the additives, I'll keep it in mind if I go that route.

turbo6bar · 02-22-2005, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lendaddy
Thanks guys. I don't need anywhere near those pressures. All I need to do is achieve atomization. All this will be is a mist delivery system. The beauty of the deal is the electronically controlled injectors which will allow measured and controlled distribution of the fluid. Now I'm wondering what PSI I will need to get atomization. Also, the volume will be tiny by comparison, maybe an ounce or two per hour. The idea is to be able to schedule and adjust blast duration and frequency via an integrated console.

Maybe I am missing a simpler method?

If it is below 125 psi, can you use a tank pressurized with compressed air? On my yard spraying rig, atomization is related to tip size vs. pressure. My small nozzles will atomize water at very low pressures.

If compressed air is not enough, you could use CO2 tank, but you would need to make sure the rest of the system is up to the task. I don't think you need to go the lengths of using a diesel injection pump. As already mentioned, a 20 year old Bosch pump can deliver 150+ bar pressure.
jurgen

notfarnow · 02-22-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turbo6bar
FWIW, some guys are running vegetable oil in their diesel engines. It must be preheated when it's really cold outside. @65-70 degrees F, you just might be able to run the oil straight.

Hey, I'm one of those guys! In most applications, the vegoil should be heated to about 140*F in order to get it thin enough. The exception is Mercedes diesels. People have run straight vegetable oil in them at 70*... although I prefer to be prudent and keep it hot.

notfarnow · 02-22-2005, 03:57 PM

Lendady, depending on the engine you want to modify, I might be able to find modified injectors designed for better atomization with higher viscosity fuels.

350HP930 · 02-22-2005, 05:05 PM

There is also the modern powerstroke type of electronically controlled diesel fuel injector.

The basics of how one works is each injector is tied into a low pressure fuel manifold, oil pressure manifold (~60 psi), and an oil return manifold.

Each injector has an eletronically controlled oil pressure solenoid that actuates a small piston that pushes an even smaller pressure that atomizizes fuel into the combustion chamber.

For what you need to do I would just rig up a high pressure pump, adjustable bypass valve and an old fashioned diesel injector or some other type of high pressure spray nozzle.

All the sytems set up for engine injection will be a pain in the ass to get to work for your application.