Mercedes Diesel Wagon

mikes72t · 03-06-2005, 03:54 AM

My wife is interested in the biodiesel thing and like the pre 85 MB diesel wagons. Does anyone have any expereince they can share?

Thanks

Mike

osidak · 03-06-2005, 06:57 AM

Pre 85 means a W123 body style. I own a 1980 240D which is also a W123.

I run biodiesel (B20) in both my 240D and my VW TDI. What type of info are you looking for?

speeder · speeder's Garage

Osidak, Can you tell us a little more about biodiesel? Can you mix using it w/ pump diesel, how do you get it, (belong to a co-op?), how does the TDI run on it, etc?

I love diesels, so this is really interesting to me. TIA.

5axis · 03-06-2005, 09:29 AM

Hey Denis check this site out.

http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/default.shtm

I have run B20 in my F350 and found slightly better milage and performance. I was way out in the stix and stumbled into a station that had it. I guess I would run it if it were available locally.

notfarnow · 03-06-2005, 09:49 AM

This fall, I converted my dad's 1983 300SD (126 body style) to run on WVO/SVO (straight vegetable oil). PM me if you need information.

http://www.jakepalmeristheman.com/2004/11/nov-7th.html

I've also converted an 87 Jetta, and my 96 Jetta is still ongoing. I'll be converting a 5.9L 91 dodge ram in a month or so as well

notfarnow · 03-06-2005, 09:57 AM

Also. you'll find a wealth of information on this forum:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x

The SVO/WVO forum can be a bit slow for responses, especially when you're used to Pelican. THe Biodiesel side seems to be quite a bit more active.

FWIW, the older mercedes are supposed to be the best engines to run on alternative fuels, be it biodiesel or WVO. They are also a joy to work on and drive.

mikes72t · 03-06-2005, 10:04 AM

We are researching and debating between sVO/WVo and biodiesl. I am hoping to some info on what to look for in the lder MB wagons, perhaps a good place to find some for sale, a buyers guide, that kind of thing. If it works for her MB then I would probably try to get a newer VW TDI for my commuter , just to balance off the Pcar and its blatant use of fuel.

Thanks for the help so far.

Mike

notfarnow · 03-06-2005, 10:19 AM

If you take the WVO route, the VW diesels are the easiest to convert. The only fuel pump is the actual injection pump, so it's drawing the fuel all the way from the tank. Put in a fuel switching valve and run a second set of fuel lines for the veg tank. Some people have even managed to fabricate a 5 gallon SVO tank that fits in the engine compartment.

As for the SVO/biodiesel debate, I think it depends on how much effort you want to put forth. Running biodiesel isn't going to save you much $$ unless you brew the stuff yourself. The effort and cost of setting up a biodiesel "refinery" is roughly equal to the effort/cost of converting a car to run on SVO. The benefit of SVO is that once you've converted, all you need to do is filter your fuel. If you go the biodiesel route, you'll have to "make" fuel out of your filtered SVO.

It also depends on what kind of problem-solving you enjoy. Biodiesel folks tend to enjoy the chemistry involved in making batches of fuel. SVo folks usually enjoy the mechanical nature of the conversion... there's nothing you can't look at and figure out.

Then again, you may just like the idea of pulling up to teh fuel pump and buying biodiesel, which is pretty cool on its own.

notfarnow · 10:31 AM

As for what to look for in older mercedes, look for rust, transmission issues and good compression. These things will take LOTS of abuse, so many GET lots of abuse. Dad's car was a one-owner, well maintained car. It has about 100k miles on it, and he paid about 6 grand US.

When looking at cars, try to check them out on cold days to see how they start. (make sure tehy haven't already warmed it up before you arrive) It should start easily after cycling the glow plugs. It should turn over quickly and start easily. It's worth finding a shop that specializes in diesels, and asking them to recommend particular cars they might know are for sale.

Be sure to get a turbo... they're quieter and infinetly better cars to drive.

mikes72t · 03-06-2005, 06:20 PM

notfarnow:

Thanks or all of that info. This should be interesting especially as gas prices continue to increase. Anyway, do you have any recommendations on a MB forum like Pelican and a MB parts source?

Thanks

Mike

Jay Auskin · 03-06-2005, 07:24 PM

Be careful if anyone's thinking of biodiesel on newer common rail systems. Bosch has found biodiesel leaving very strange deposits and causing problems in their high pressure common rail systems. This was in an article I saw either in Ward's, or the SAE publication...can't remember which one.

osidak · 03-06-2005, 07:52 PM

Those sites will give lots of info on WVO or Biodiesel. Personally I would never use WVO as I think it is too much a pain in the ass to deal with.

BioDiesel can be mixed and matched with Petrol diesel all day long. It is however very hydroscopic and that is bad news for IP's (injection Pumps)

My 240D has 375,000 miles on it. Been in the family since day one. Been dead reliable. I personally put 300,000 of those miles on the car. The TDI has much more power and is easier to drive but doesn't match the "vault" feel of the 240D

The majority of MB owners would never consider doing their own work so not too many "good" sites like this. The diesel guys do like to work on them so I am sure you will find something.

notfarnow · 03-07-2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikes72t
Anyway, do you have any recommendations on a MB forum like Pelican and a MB parts source?

pretty good one here:
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/index.php3

Quote:

Originally posted by osidak
Personally I would never use WVO as I think it is too much a pain in the ass to deal with.

Depends... if the plan is to collect WVO and make your own biodiesel, then WVO is no more of a pain in the ass. If you make biodiesel, you still have to collect you WVO and filter it THEN make your batch of fuel.

I went the WVO route because in the long run, it's cheaper and less work. Plus, I don't have to worry about biodiesel attacking rubber seals.

mikes72t · 03-07-2005, 03:24 PM

So we bought a 1984 300 TD wagon off ebay last night. So now it is off to Chicago to pick it up. God I hope it is a decent car, This ebay thing scares me but hopefully it will work out. Now I just have to make sure eveything is up to snuff before we start the WVO thing.

Thanks for all of your help. It is going to be interesting. How hard is it to get WVO form the restaurants.

Thanks again.

Mike

turbo6bar · 03-07-2005, 03:37 PM

Damn, you move fast, mikes72t!!!

My dad once owned a 240D with over 360k miles on it. Dunno if the engine was original, but the doors still closed with authority. I do not believe any car since then is built to such tank-like standards.

I recall reading that a mix of regular diesel + biodiesel (B20???) burns cleaner than regular diesel fuel.

I'd personally like to run WVO in the Dodge 2500 with 5.9L Cummins, but I'm cautious because I rely on the truck daily.

Mercedesshop.com has good forums, and I like Rusty at http://parts.mbz.org/ for parts.

Look at greasel for information about getting WVO from restaurants. They recommend going when the restaurant isn't busy. Check the WVO vat first. If the oil is nasty, go to another restaurant. If the oil is clean, ask the manager.

notfarnow · 03-07-2005, 04:17 PM

Really good primer on getting started with WVO here, with specific info on how to approach restaurants:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/347104314

Turbo6bar is right... be chosey about oil. There are plenty of restaurants out there, so take the time to find a reliable source of consistent fuel. For whatever reason, chinese resaurants seem to have very clean oil.

I'd probably avoid greasel... there have been some unhappy customers posting on the forum I participate in. Some questionable claims, and the post-sale support seems to be spotty.

Biofuels sells very high-quality stuff, and offer fantastic support.

Really though, if you're halfway handy you can set up a really good, reliable system.

kaisen · 03-07-2005, 04:24 PM

I've owned two Mercedes diesels, a 1977 240D 5 speed, and a 1984 300SD.

My 240D (which was the same W123 body, but a sedan) was originally purchased by a military couple in Germany and brought back to the states where they used it here in the Midwest until I bought it in 1990 with 345K original miles. Original engine and trans, original clutch. It was pastel yellow with green MB Tex vinyl.
I used the car as a winter-beater to store my other cars from the harsh salt. I couldn't kill that car! And I tried. I sold it to a college student in 1993 (with 360K+) and saw the car in Duluth, MN in 1997, still running.

My 300SD had the exact same turbodiesel drivetrain as the 300TD wagon you just bought, but in the S-class (W126) sedan body. We drove that car daily from Aug 1990 until Aug 1993, from 36K miles to 154K miles, commuting 120 miles a day. We got up to 35 mpg and that car would cruise comfortably at 60-85mph all day every day. Great car.

Trouble spots mechanically:
Climate control, you will have trouble with the control unit
Cruise control, you will have trouble with the cruise amp
Oil leaks, they're just like 911's
Glow plug problems, sucks in cold weather
Nivomat self-leveling rear suspension ($$)
Rear liftgate struts, expensive and hard-to-get-at

The motors themselves are BULLETPROOF
Turbos commonly have oil related failures
Transmissions are okay

123's are usually rust-prone, like old 911's. Check the rockers and jack points and the rear wheel wells. They made the W123's from 1977 to 1986, so there are a lot of donor cars and replacement parts are easy to find.

As for bio diesel, I'd be very careful about how it affects the fuel system. The turbodiesels used a mechanical injection system very similar to CIS. Any particulate in the fuel car wear or clog the fine mechanisms in the distributor pump or the injectors. Be sure to use a high quality fuel filter and water separator.... ditch the M-B stuff.

It's been a while, but I used to have lots of info on good suppliers like Pelican, and know what brands of oem were good alternatives to M-B. But my experience with classic M-B's (I owned 12 total) ended when I sold my 6.9 in 2000. It'll come to me and I can post them if you like.

Good luck and keep us posted!

E