I get such a kick out of people comparing WWII to today. There are no parallels whatsoever—different time in so many ways—but WWII was an honorable war, and by juxtaposing it with today's mess, they hope to give credibility to something that has none.

I like to give credit where it is due: The Right is masterful at controlling/subverting language, the country's dialogue.

This is so very evident in the current SS scare, I'm glad people are just starting to catch on.

So because you disagree with the war it is perfectly acceptable to report it in a manner that puts everything in the worst possible light?

Legion, although he will not be able to see it that way, that is exactly what he is saying.

With this question, you clearly don't watch both CNN and Fox equally.

The warmongers harp on us libbies for always being so negative about the war, but bear with us.; It's hard for us to get all giddy and excited about 15XX dead American soldiers, $350B expended, several $B funnelled to Halliburton/Brown & Root et al, XX thousand dead Iraqis, TortureGate, all in the name of the search for WMDs and so people in a 3rd world country whom nobody really gave a rat's ass about previously can vote, but hopefully not for someone who isn't on-board with American interests. Forgive us our trespasses that we're not jumping for joy that while our own infrastrucure (roads, schools, etc) are having issues, the Bush Administration is telling us point blank that Iraqi roads and schools (which the warmongers love to tell us are being built) are more important than American ones. Please excuse our irrational non-exuberrance of the conflicting promise to get out of Iraq while at the same time building a dozen or so large bases there.

Jane Fonda, no. Barbarella, sure.

Great points Thom, you may want to include that we are borrowing the money to pay for the war from China, the same folks with which we have the largest trade deficit in history, who are currently building a serious military and have designs to take Taiwan by force, a country we are sworn to protect.

Can't wait for us to go to war with our bankers.

I can only imagine the result if the money spent on Iraq had been put into our school system.

Sup and widebody, a serious question that may put it into perspective.

I have brought up George Snufaluphagus and Chris Matthews, two guys that worked in Democratic administrations. They gave these guys political shows as "impartial" hosts!!!!!!!! WTF??????????????

And never tell anyone of their past party affiliation! Double WTF?????

Do you not see why we have a problem? Hows about Karl Rove takes over for Matthews, would you have a problem? Remember, he will NEVER mention his previous employment and attempt to pass himself off as objective.

Yeah, and if Iraq had destroyed the WTC, then we'd all be behind this so-called "war." I think I can speak for the vast majority of my liberal friends when I say that if ANYBODY attacked the US, we're supportive of any rational strategy to destroy those enemies. But again, Iraq did not attack the US, Osama Bin Laden did. But instead of focusing on destroying that enemy, your fabulous "president" has chosen instead to withdraw significant resources from Afghanistan and the hunt for Bin Laden and his cronies, and turn everyone's attention to occupying a sovereign nation that probably hated Bin Laden as much as we do. It's the shell game, and you guys are swallowing the hook.

Who's Osama bin Laden?

Really, did you see the Bush press conference the other day with Porter Goss?

Bush is going on and on about the war on terror and then says something like, "and we're working hard to capture OBL..." and as soon as Bush says OBL, Goss raises his eyebrow, cocks his head back, has a puzzle look on his face with some part of his brain asking, "we are, hmm, I wasn't aware of that?"

It was priceless.

This is the way the US military leaders asked for it to be done. All news is censored out of Iraq, they don't want us to know how many Iraqi have died - not good press.

Cost in dollars:
http://costofwar.com/

Cost in US blood:
http://antiwar.com/casualties/

Cost in Iraqi blood (conservative number):
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Cost in Iraqi blood (liberal):
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/

The lancet study (weigh it as you will):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

More Lancet comparisons:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/28/iraq_deaths041028.html



Note: if you look for articles on depleted uranium (DU's) you will find projection numbers going over 1-million - that is if you count dead fetuses/ miscarriages too.

No way..........saw it on Jon Stewart's The Daily Show the other day. Can't believe it's made the main stream press - it's a classic folks - we are all the fools.

Education is probably the single factor that is going to impact our economic position in the world in twenty years, and also is probably the single factor that will have the greatest impact on national security. And in case any conservatives are actually considering the facts, I'll warn you that this is going to sting: Your "leaders" and yourselves have such a necessary and powerful disdain for education that it is now imperative (actually, it's getting to be a little to late at this point) that a different administration come into power. It is necessary for your party to reduce education. The more education people get, the more liberal they become. In the meantime, while the party in power starves education and focuses on giving money to Haliburton.....it's like Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

And besided education, we've got lots of other infrastructure deterioration going on and it's going to get REALLY expensive now that we've deferred all those costs. Same thing happens over and over again. Republicans raid our coffers for the benefit of corporations, and then the Dems have to come in and do the hard work of raising taxes to pay for the infrastructure deterioration that has occurred in the meantime.

And with the international situation the way it is, with China and Mexico and the EU, etc, etc, the folks that actually care about the people in my country instead of just the corporation, are going to have their work cut out for them. While you pretend we are traitors, we're watching your "leaders" tear down my country. And you yourselves badmouth "gubmint." Government IS my country. Government is US. So when you act like you are the enemy of my government, don't you dare try to call me a traitor.

Supe - man, get a grip.

Starves education? Look at your average property tax bill in the last 20 years??? $13,000 a head in New York City public schools and many cant read or write!!! It is not a problem of $ M-O-N-E-Y-$

And "infrastructure deterioration" ugg, another one. Where exactly? Traveled the world lately? Flown places lately? Outside of the US??

Handouts and social programs are not what will help education IMO. Testing and demanding performance from all kids is what is needed. If a kid is not learning, all the money in the world will not change this fact.
If all parents cared enough to make their children study and demanded results, our education system would immensely. It is not my fault and should not be my burden to make sure others care for their kids. If they are not willing to care for the kids they fathered and mothered why should I? (Personal responsibility is key here in my opinion)

Supe, in all the posts I have read of yours, you have ripped on nearly every single thing our "gubmint" has done since Bush was elected. Now I do not think of you as a traitor (not that you should really care what I think). Of the libs on this board, you usually seem to keep your arguments civilized. I just happen to disagree with most your ideas (not because of FOX news, but because of my idea of what is right/wrong).

Now 360, he is a bit more "Over the Top" IMO.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim Hancock
[B]It is not my fault and should not be my burden to make sure others care for their kids. If they are not willing to care for the kids they fathered and mothered why should I? (Personal responsibility is key here in my opinion)

Tim, aren't you a Christian? I'm not, but I still think it's my responsibility to care for my fellow man. Your above statement is pretty harsh, and I think if more people felt the opposite, we'd all be a little better off.

Right now, there are two issues rising to the surface in terms of what our state government needs to deal with. One is education. Apparently, funding is drying up and students in 2-year schools, for the first time, are likely going to be denied enrollment in 4-year universities when the've finished the 2-year school.

the other issue is transportation infrastructure. Seattle is becoming nationally famous for its rush-hour gridlock. If I drive from my home to work during popular drive times, I am going to spend about 25 miles in first gear AND with my foot on the clutch pedal. When traffic moves at regular speeds, my care gets absolutely BEAT UP by the problems in the road surface.

My occupation has dealt exclusively with public works construction for the past fifteen years and here's an interesting observation: Both sides of the aisle, Republican and Democrat alike, have been in agreement that our roads need work. Both maintenance and capacity improvement (new roads and lanes). And we continue to allow the voters to be fooled into thinking that tax money is not necessary for road maintenance and construction. The most conservative realistic estimates of the price we are going to pay in Washington State to accomplish the necessary repair, are in the neighborhood of TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS.

But I guess our money is better spent killing Muslims and paying Haliburton to short-change our troops.

Thanks, by the way Tim, for your respectful post. Candidly, sometimes I am a little rough on the current administration and sometimes I sound a little more rabid than I really am, for a purpose. I do honestly think that the current policies are WAY slanted to the right, which to me means ignoring human needs in favor of commercial ones. And I'm trying hard to drag anyone I can back toward the left just a little, so we can consider discussing what our PEOPLE are needing. so, I'm glad you;'re forgiving of my rants.

Shaun, you are correct that it sounds a little harsh, but I truly feel we have too many social programs and that they just have not been proven to help anything. In fact, I think the programs actually make matters worse instead of better. They promote a lifestyle of dependency on others. Surely there are cases where help is warranted, but as a whole I think less is more. I do help others, but I do so when I feel it is appropriate.

If you went down to the local "hood" and you gave someone $50 that claimed that they needed it for food, are you confident that they would use it for food or do you think that it would the equivalent of lighting it on fire? My guess is that you and I would have opposite answers to this question. (not that there is any thing wrong with differing views)

Here's something interesting:

"Sen. Joseph Zarelli, R-Ridgefield, said it would be possible to restore the pay increases without raising taxes, though the money would have to be found elsewhere."

This is an interesting remark from the ranking Republican Senate budget committee member, considering the information I provided above and the brute fact that everyone notices the legislature is having a very hard time closing a bodget gap of $2.2 billion. It's a very irresponsible and self-serving remark, but that's what we've come to expect.

Tim, we are in complete agreement here. Quick story: worked for a composite fabrication company ages ago. We did a lot of DoD work, I handled all of the cost accounting and billing. First, I can tell you that the government is filled with morons. I've worked with them. I over-billed them, sometimes by accident, some times on purpose. When they caught it (not all the time) they just added to the contract. I can only imagine what Halliburton really gets.

But this isn't my story (which are never quick! :) ) That company was sold and I moved on to a DoEd based company. We did contracts for NSF, DoEnergy and of course DoEd. We did curriculum testing and development. We spent a bout $50 million a year of government money. What happened to all the reports, data, etc.? Nothing. It was a massive waste. Contract heads had the most terrible organizational skills, I can go on and on, but I can tell you that the Dof Ed was complete waste of money in the late 80s and early 90s.

We need accountability and discipline built into our education system, and I like that Bush has put some of that into place, just didn't really fund it, but that's a separate issue. A bigger issue is how we value education in this country. Clearly we don't because if we did, teachers would earn high 5 figures, be expected to undergo regular testing and training, and only the best could become teachers.

Throwing money at problems never works. Testing, evaluating and incorporating achievement-based feedback loops with commensurate compensation always works.