war motivation
 

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11092765.htm

I don't agree with his last paragraph, but maybe we can remember some of this before we get led falsely into another war.

I do agree with the last paragraph. And it looks like Americans are fully prepared to be led falsely into another war.

The fear machine was in full swing for months leading up to the war.

I have sent this article on to quite a few folks. Thanks!!

I still remember the news stories claiming that saddam was planning on attacking the US with bioweapon dispersing drone aircraft. :rolleyes:

All BS of course, but typical of the kind of propaganda that the bush regime was spreading via our servile corporate media.

http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=2755&fcategory_desc=Under%20Rep orted

I just thought I'd reply to make a "who's who" of liberal posters. I don't want to miss out ;)

Yep.

"Under Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz hastened to the Hill the next day and told the legislators that Shinseki's estimate was "wildly off the mark," and that Iraq wouldn't be nearly as tough as Afghanistan had been because Iraq didn't have the sort of nasty ethnic divisions one found in Afghanistan. "

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/lol2.gif



From "Imminent Threat" to "Model for ME Democracy". How quickly we forget. Yea, it will happen again. Four years is a long time (to forget).

I think it was Gore Vidal that said that the USA appears to currently stand for the united states of amnesia.

Yes, hopefully we have learned something from all of this. It would be nice to be able to set partisian politics asside for just a moment and determine just what it might be that we can learn. Our intelligence was obviously severely lacking; at least a couple of administrations and most European governments honestly believed there was something to the weapons charges. Many still believe they had something going on; the massive convoys exiting to Syria right under inspectors' noses do look at least a little suspicious. Laying all of this on your least favorite politicians' shoulders accomplishes nothing. Neither does blindly supporting your favorite politician. We have become so polarized in this country that I often wonder if it is even possible anymore to have a calm, objective debate over an issue of this importance. I kind of boubt it.

Agreed, Jeff. Nevertheless, the reason many people believed this is because the President of the United States of America told us he was convinced of these facts. Absolutely convinced. Not guessing. Yeah, I don't like that guy anyway, but the fact remains that either he:

* lied, or

* was bamboozled and fibbed (about being certain)

Either way, he's incompetent.

One of my not even liberal but rather centrist friends the other day said:

"Americans must certainly be gullible if a Harvard-and-Yale educated son of a billionnaire oil baron who sat out the Viet Nam war in the National Guard can be sold to the public as a regular joe." I thought that was interesting.

Sold to the public as a "regular Joe"? WTF is that all about? I think it is pretty awful to hear folks who do not agree with W's policies, call him "incompetent", stupid or try to paint him into some other derogatory category. Clearly he is not a stupid man (he owned a baseball team, he flew fighter jets, he was a governor and is now president of the US. Disagree with his policies, but please do not try to claim he is ignorant.

Supe, you make it sound like you think you are genious, while the president of the greatest country on earth is a complete nimrod. This approach makes zero sense to me and when I hear it, I cannot help but
disregard any point you might be trying to make. Instead I just start smelling sour grapes.

Do you catch my drift?

Absolutely. That is, however, what we are stuck with at that level. Anyone that rises to that level of power in our country is a child of priveledge and wealth. We have not had a "regular Joe" in the Oval Office in my lifetime, or my parents' lifetimes either. That's no longer possible with what it costs monitarily or politically to launch a campaign for that office today. As far as our current resident of that hallowed office, if he is to be labeled a liar, incompetent, or whatever else over this issue, we must include his predecessor and a very large number of not only our leaders, but others from around the world. I'm sure he was acting upon the best information he had available at the time. That it turned out to be a bigger can of worms than he realized going in is something we have the luxury of pointing out through hindsight, and a fine mess it is. Looking at our options after having opened that can, I'm not sure we could have done anything different that what we are doing - riding it out to the end. Hopefully when the dust settles over there, all those American lives will mean something. The track record in that area of the world is historically not very good, and I would not be surprised to see it settle back into their traditional infighting based on tribal and religious differences. It bothers me to think this, but unfortunately I truly believe there are those in this country that would like nothing better, just so they can say "we told you so", and add to their "Bush is an idiot and it's all his fault" rhetoric. There are a lot of good peoples' futures at stake over there. Unfortunately, it seems to boil down to a partisian political debate here at home, with those futures some abstract idea that seems to be left out. Too many here are more interested in winning that political debate than they are in those peoples' futures.

Jeff, hold your head up. It aint over yet, but it appears good things are starting to happen in the Middle East (Syria/Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, women's rights, voting in Iraq, lots of dead terrorist/insurgents). Imagine if all this comes around while W is still in office, alot of naysayers will be changing their stories and claiming they were for it all along! How funny will that be??!!

Thom, did you ever party while in college? Have you mastered the systems in a fighter jet? What team and players have you owned and traded? Are you a professional speaker?

I guess if any of your answers to the above questions are different than W's answer to the same questions, then that would make you a better president? I am soooo confused! If only I were a liberal, maybe then I would be able to make sense of all of this. Thank you for your "attempt" at showing me the light though!

Tim:

When your family has access to virtually unlimited funds and power, anything is possible:govenorship, even the presidency. Talent, under these circumstances, is only a minor factor in the equation.

Not taking sides, just pointing out a fact of life.

I agree that often in life it is not neccesarily what you know, but who you know. That does not mean that one should not take the opportunities that are presented in life. One would truly be "stupid" to squander opportunities. Many (not all) high level politicians and successful business men have come from well to do families, so what?
You cannot fault them just because they got a good education. (well, I guess some people try to).

To state that the man is a blundering idiot because he came from a wealthy family is just ridiculous.

Re: war motivation
 

:rolleyes:

I like the way the article starts with a false premise: "War with Iraq" started when Saddams troops invaded Kuwait! Pushing him back to Bagdad. . .the No-Fly zone enforcement -- to keep Saddams genocide in check.

To say it started so simpley, such a short time ago, is really disingenuous.

Furthermore, this article confuses Iraq's liberation with the Alqaeda types who went to Iraq (or were already there) to continue the fight . . to stir the pot . . to make America fail.

But hey, you lib's will be happy, I suppose, now that AlQaeda is pulling out of Iraq to redirect their efforts back DIRECTLY at Americans.

Just think, our next "9-11" you lib's can spin-up as GW's fault for invading Iraq. :rolleyes: . .. .scapegoat beating dumb-asses.

Tim:

Respectfully; I am not one who labels the current president in any way, shape or manner. We agree that many politicians come from wealthy, well-to-do families. However, look at the caliber of some of these individuals and tell me they are the best of the breed....

Taking advantage of opportunities is what policians do best!! And not necessarily to the advantage of the public they are supposed to serve.

No, he's not a blundering idiot because of his wealthy family. Probably there is no causal connection. It's a luck-of-the-draw thing.

And yeah, Tim. Dubya has been packaged as a "regular Joe." Candidacies for POTUS are a matter of marketing. Regardless of party affiliation. In our country, it's totally form-over-substance. Our political system is decidedly not Porsche. It's more Ferrari. Or perhaps Jaguar. How else can you get struggling waitresses to vote for tax breaks for billionnaires.

And while I notice that your perception of me is elitist, haughty and egotistical, I assume you need to do that. You're not the first conservative to sidestep Dubya's very obvious intellectual weakness by shifting the focus to the asserted arogance of the person who is making the observations about Dubya. Like for example his renowned inability to construct a coherent sentence that is not printed on a page in front of him. Anyway, I'm not trying to "pile on," really. It's just that most folks make less comical/idiotic remarks in their lifetimes than this guy makes in a quarterly period. I undertand your need to villify me in your mind, and I even understand that making this statement will help to cement that belief of yours. Oh well........

And at least part of your belief is very true. I am brillyent.

Preach on Island. I have seen first hand what Al Qaeda Terrorists are capable of. Wait until they really impact our way of life here in the US.

I suppose we should have fired a couple of missles at Saddam, and then backed away....

whiners.....

Was Clinton from a wealthy family? I thought he came from modest beginnings??? Or, am I confused again?

- Skip

Seriously, you ar e not very brillyent (sic) if you cannot discern between a speech impediment and cognitive function.
MAny people, who's brains are thinking waaayyyy ahead of there mouth, have this problem.

One common thread, I've noticed; lib's listen to a slick talker (w/ poor actions) and conclude he is a genus. . .. lib's witness smart actions (w/ poor speach) and conclude he is a dunce.

. . .it's all about image, with you lib's.

Supe- Ever been in front of the camera? I have and it SUCKED!!! How about 10 with national coverage? How'd you do? If poorly, does that make you an idiot? Tongue ever get tied during presentations at work? Does that really make a person an idiot? Is public speaking really "the" trait we should measure someone on?

I've always heard, from both sides, that Bush is EXCELLENT when he is in small groups/one-on-one.

My father never graduated high school. Speaks like - well, someone that never graduated high school. But, he is a brilliant man. Built a business from nothing to the largest of it's kind in the state (which was one of the big ones). Fought and beat the full weight of the unions (that sprayed his business with bullets, threatened to kill me and my sisters - among other persuasive moves). Overall, I consider him quite a successful. Come on man, open your mind... The way someone speaks is not the definitive answer to their intellect!

- Skip

Harry Truman didn't start from Wealth
Dwight Eisenhower...started in Kansas
LBJ...was a poor school teacher from Texas
Richard Nixon..was the son of a failed Orange Rancher in Whittier
Gerald Ford...was from Grand Rapids and of modest means
Carter...came from the Navys Nuclear program
R Regan...was the son of a drunk
Billy Clinton...his uncle was a used car salesman

All these men started life from humble begiinings

Supe, I do not think I called you an elitist (maybe a little egotistical on occasion, but aren't we all), although I think I may have accused others in the past. I honestly think your assessment of W's intelligence is unwarranted.

Have you ever administered a test to the president? Have you ever discussed issues with him in person? If not, how do you know his level of intelligence? You must have based this on what the press has shown you right? You hate Fox, so who do you watch and read? I hope you do not mention CBS because if that is what you base your opinion of W on, well..... I think we get the idea.

I am sure you are not the first person to side step the fact that your canidate got beat by the better man by claiming the better man and his supporters are all mindless twits.
(tit for tat, I could not resist).

Re: Re: war motivation
 

I understand your assertion that this thing has a history, and that Iraq invaded Kuwait. True. And yes, GW is going to get some blame for the next terrorist attack. I personally have the strong opinion that he has done virtually everything in his power to attract the hatred of the ultra-conservative Muslims in the ME, and that he has dropped the ball in what I would consider the real fight against terrorism, both on a Military Intelligence and covert action basis, as well as in humanitarian and public image basis. I know opinions vary on this and I respect folks who believe that Dubya's efforts to bring democracy to Iraq, or rid them of WMD, or whatever is the excuse du jour, are appropriate. I just do not share those beliefs. Again, I would have preferred that he intensify intelligence and military actions against one of the real enemies, Al Queda. And I wish he were focusing on the other real enemy, which I believe is "perception" and economics/politics. It looks to me like he has completely missed both those targets. And I think the price we will pay for that is an even further eroded position against terrorists. I think we are WAY worse off than we were in September, 2001. And I think we're going to see more attacks. And we're not going to be looking with any degree of sophistication when it happens.

You guys are delusional. Sure, I assume he's got some intelligence. And I accept the notion that Dubya's legendary verbal foe-pahs are for the most part not illustrative of his actual intelligence level. In other words, I think the remarks he has made would suggest an IQ somewhere around fifty, but I think his is actually higher than that.

but yeah, you guys are indeed delusional. Speech impediment? give me a break! Who's got the link to the website containing the VOLUMINOUS litany of unfortunate remarks this guy has made. I'd probably like to post just a few up here and we'll consider whether it's a speech impediment problem.

Worse off than before September 11th?

Keep making the sheep noises Supe.

Supe- It'd be interesting to have some folks follow you around and few years and pick everything you say and do apart. How'd you come out of it? Would we be able to call you an idiot? Would it make it so?

Or, are you really W's intellectual superior?

- Skip

One more thing re: Bush's obvious intellectual deficiencies...

How did Bush graduate from Harvard and Yale? Daddy buy it for him? Threaten assignation by the CIA? Something else???

Now THAT would be a conspiracy I'd find interest in. How many professors & deans would it take to pull that off? How many of them have come out to break the silence? Seriously, if there are reports of the such, I'd be interested in reviewing.

-Skip

Supe, did you miss my prior question above regarding where you got your information that convinced you about W's intelligence? Or do you choose to skip that one? I think I already know the answer, not that you will see it (hint: liberal biased press).

Sup,

I gotta say you're just wrong here. I am the undisputed KING of not being able to spit words out. I see this in Bush as well. Many times I am at a loss for words, yet I can decribe what I want to say in forty different ways and even accompany it with a few pictures, but I'll be damned if the c0ck sucker will come out of my mouth!!!! I see Bush doing the same thing. You pause, then get pissed at yourself, then you spit out something/anything to break the awkward silence. Sometimes it works, often it doesn't. It sucks beyond all compare, I promise you. But it does not mean that he or I are mental midgets. I can assure you that my IQ is quite high and I imagine W's is as well (not that I think it really matters once you are above a certain level).

To get back on topic again . .

The intelligence was not just lacking, much of it was manufactured, spun and patently false.

Does anyone remember 'curveball', the lone iraqi defector who's tales of WMD largesse accounted for most of the administration's tall tales even though most middle east experts in the CIA and military claimed his stories were dubious at best.

And then there are his handlers, which read like a who's who of the bush administration and the PNAC. These people have been working for over a decade to start a full scale war against iraq and much of this so called 'intelligence' has been created by this group soley for this purpose.

For example someone went as far as to manufacture forged documents to make it look like saddam was trying to procure uranium from africa, strange concidering that iraq has enough uranium ore within its borders to not need to shop around for the stuff.

So what has the bush administration done to guard against such future 'intelligence lapses'? His cronies are forcing all the people who dared to do their job the first time around pointing out which intelligence was legit and which was false out of the US's intelligence organizations and promoting the ideologs and yes men who always say what the president wants to hear.

Just how far up one's ass does a person need shove their head to ignore such facts and claim that the manufactured concent that was used to launch a war of agression against a nation that did not attack us first was an accident?

Geeez, it's like one big justification of GWBs faults AND positive being seen as good points.

Apparently, Bush is a regular guy because he partied too much, became an alcoholic and struggles with public speaking.

However, at the same time he is obviously smart because he owned a baseball team and got tertiary qualifications from high zoot universities.

I think we're taking both of those just a little too seriously... For one, I would be completely confident that I could have been to Yale and Harvard and passed (how much harder than the good old University of Auckland can it be).

Its worse really - anyone who ever really thought about tertiary education will know that it is a really good way to find out if someone is good at university. Not a job, not being POTUS, just university.

Also, I'd dispute that all people who learned to fly in the National Guard are POTUS material.

IMHO, GWB's pathologically poor diction and "gut feel" decision making are no more acceptable than Kerry's prevaricating was. When other world leaders think your leader is an idiot, you have a problem (whether he's an idiot or not).

I for one am glad he's a coke-head alcoholic, I mean if he smoked pot...
It's kinda funny, Clinton was berailed every day of his office with a vengance and many democrats publically didn't support some of his actions.
The W people on the other hand still cling to this "do no wrong" mentality regardless of the Americans affected now and in the future by his spending policies. It's like a set of moral guides has been replaced by aliegence to an individual. Think about that for a little while.

I agree with 350HP930 and Superman, they appear to be the more logical unbiased thinkers around here who tell it like it is.
Too bad the lowest common denominator that make up the american public re-elected this war-criminal back into office. i say put W up there on trial with Saddam. have them cross examine each other. W doesn't stand a chance.

Lowest common denominator? Saddam>Bush? Bush=war criminal?

Wow, On-Ramp, I feel so stupid now. Thanks for turning on the light for me. I have to quit watching Fox and start watching CBS, maybe Rather will report on Bush in a more "enlightened" fashion (oops, I forgot he had to quit due to fraudulent biased reporting).
Well at least I have this forum with the likes of you lefty guys, who are so much smarter and unbiased, to "tell it like it is".

on-ramp!? what kind of tight bulls ass do you pull this BS? :cool: