Prayer Team - WTF?

[Moneyguy1]

I could never be a true athiest. Trying to prove a negative is impossible. Athiesm is as much a faith as any religion, just different opinions of what there is "beyond the veil".

Agnostic? Well, that I could at least embrace even though the true athiest says that is wussing out.

AS long as we are alive and conscious, we will never know, will we?

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
I could never be a true athiest. Trying to prove a negative is impossible. Athiesm is as much a faith as any religion, just different opinions of what there is "beyond the veil".

Trying to prove a negative? We dont ascribe ascribe eternal life to microbes or dogs or even the great apes. We know when they die, they are simply dead.

The only difference is our hubris.

There is no evidence for the existence of a god.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
I could never be a true athiest. Trying to prove a negative is impossible. Athiesm is as much a faith as any religion, just different opinions of what there is "beyond the veil".

You're absolutely right - proving a negative is impossible. That's why atheists aren't out trying to *prove* that god doesn't exist. It can't be done.

Theists are the ones making extraordinary claims, not atheists. Show me the *proof* that god(s) does exist? Show me something...anything... ??

There is nothing behind the veil...

Mike

[Moneyguy1]

Respectfully..

Look up the root meaning of "athiest" before you post further. It is, loosely, "against god", and therefore, as difficult to prove there is none as it is to prove one exists. Agnostic states "I do not know". Much more rational approach given the inability to prove either side.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Respectfully..

Look up the root meaning of "athiest" before you post further. It is, loosely, "against god", and therefore, as difficult to prove there is none as it is to prove one exists. Agnostic states "I do not know". Much more rational approach given the inability to prove either side.

Bit of a semantic argument, but an intersting one.

A Theist believes in the existence of god (or gods). "Believes" being the operative word. An Atheist, it would follow, does not.

A Theist relies on a personal belief. The Bible for example, requires this thing called "faith". Faith underpins this belief system. Faith requires that the believer hold to his beliefs no matter what.

This is, generally, nonsensical to the Atheist.

Its not for the aethist to disprove something for which no proof is offered in the first place.

You might say "there is a god". I might say there is not. There is no negative to prove, but there is certainly a positive to prove.

[djmcmath]

Stuart, you know I would argue that the proof of God's existence is all around us, and throw the ball right back into your court: Prove, if you will, that there is no God. The negative is no more demonstrable than the positive, if you approach it from the other side.


Despite your general disdain for this thing you call faith, I must admit I'm impressed with yours. You believe there is no God, and you take action based on what you believe -- that's faith, no question. Relatively few philosophers have the spine to stand up and announce that there is no God. Kudos to you, Stuart.

Dan

[kach22i]

Originally posted by stuartj
A Theist believes in the existence of god..........................
A Theist relies on a personal belief.

I've been told the the framers of the constitution were mostly Theist - Jefferson too.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Respectfully..

Look up the root meaning of "athiest" before you post further. It is, loosely, "against god", and therefore, as difficult to prove there is none as it is to prove one exists. Agnostic states "I do not know". Much more rational approach given the inability to prove either side.

Also respectively, the term atheist more accurately means "without god" not "against god". Subtle, but important distinction. Maybe the term "antitheist" would be someone who is against god.

The rationality of the approach is more a function of possibilities versus probabilities. Is it possible that a god or gods exist? Sure. Is it probable? No.

Mike

[stuartj]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Stuart, you know I would argue that the proof of God's existence is all around us, and throw the ball right back into your court: Prove, if you will, that there is no God. The negative is no more demonstrable than the positive, if you approach it from the other side.

Dan

In December, a natural disaster took hundreds of thousands of the lives of gods beloved children. Why did god kill his children? He loves us. Where was god in Aceh in December? Did god send a great wave becasue the people in Indo, and Thailand and India and the Maldives had angered him?

Or perhaps this was just a random act of nature, that the rational person would expect to see in a system where chaotic forces reign.

On a less dramatic scale, why will God allow innocent peope to die, say, in Iraq, tomorrow? Or at a high school in Minnesota? Why arent these innocents saved by divine intervention? Did god create these people in his image just to cause them to come to harm?

The standard answer is "nobody can know the mind of God".

Much easier platitude to throw around than contemplating that there are no Almighty Hands on the levers.

[kang]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Stuart, you know I would argue that the proof of God's existence is all around us...

Dan

Please elaborate. Exactly what do you consider proof?

[Victor]

Originally posted by kang
Please elaborate. Exactly what do you consider proof?

Let me guess. All the good stuff:

*The smell of freshly cut grass

* The way the sun rises in the morning and reflects off the pumped rear guards of a freshly waxed 911 Porsche

* The grand canyon

* George W B winning another election

* Etc. etc.

The poor 'ol devil is to blame for all the bad stuff including (but not limited to):

* The greenhouse effect

* Rising interest rates

* Tsunamis

* Hangovers

* Nagging wives

* Baldness

* The plage

* Etc.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by djmcmath


Despite your general disdain for this thing you call faith, I must admit I'm impressed with yours. You believe there is no God, and you take action based on what you believe -- that's faith, no question. Relatively few philosophers have the spine to stand up and announce that there is no God.

Dan

Its easy, Dan. I cant see air, but I know it is there. Deprive me of it and I will die. There is all manner of scientific and practical evidence to support the existence of air.

Whats more rational? That the earth is 6000 years old, or that the earth is many millions of years old. That Jesus' mother was entered by the Holy Spirit, or knocked up by Joseph. That Noah built a really big boat and brought the animals in two by two, or that this just silly? That JC rose form the dead and ascended to Heaven, or that saying so has been the basis of what has become the most powerful and richest social institution in the world? That if you had been nborn in another culture you would probably be just as convinced of ist god, and that I still wouldnt be?

As a Xtian you are required to reject all other gods. I forget whose quote it is (and Im bound to be misquoting) but- "we are both aethists. You however believe in one more god than I do. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours."

[IROC]

Actually, the Earth was created last Thursday. All of our memories were implanted into our minds by the omnipotent god to deceive us. He also made the Earth and Universe appear to be very old even though it's only been around since last week. That god is a crafty fellow. :>)

The only way there is proof of god "all around us" is if you subscribe to supernatural explanations for natural events.

Mike

[Karl2bdc]

You don't have to have God to say a prayer. Like it or not, prayer has a positive influence on the body, state of mind, and it's health, it is the same as doing yoga, tai chi, etc. I say a prayer every morning before opening the practice, for my patients, for the people around the world suffering hard times, and it has nothing to do with god, and it sure as hell feels good afterwards. You want to pray, more power to you, even if it does include a god.

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by stuartj
Whats more rational? That the earth is 6000 years old, or that the earth is many millions of years old. That Jesus' mother was entered by the Holy Spirit, or knocked up by Joseph. That Noah built a really big boat and brought the animals in two by two, or that this just silly? That JC rose form the dead and ascended to Heaven, or that saying so has been the basis of what has become the most powerful and richest social institution in the world? That if you had been nborn in another culture you would probably be just as convinced of ist god, and that I still wouldnt be?

The funny part, Stu, is that we're both looking at the same facts. It isn't like either of us has some secret storehouse of data that we're not telling the other person about. If you approach the world saying "There is no God," then clearly, the universe must be old, and that whole Jesus thing was a fairy tale, and so on. I disagree with this position, but a reasonably coherent viewpoint can certainly be reached that way. I don't ask you to change, but I do ask you to recognize that the viewpoint reached by approaching the world from the perspective of theism is not fantastically irrational.

As a Xtian you are required to reject all other gods. I forget whose quote it is (and Im bound to be misquoting) but- "we are both aethists. You however believe in one more god than I do. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours."

I still like that quote, despite the fact that I disagree with it. I could modify it slightly: "We're both theists. You, however, believe in one fewer God than I do..."


Dan

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Victor
Let me guess. All the good stuff:

*The smell of freshly cut grass

* The way the sun rises in the morning and reflects off the pumped rear guards of a freshly waxed 911 Porsche

* The grand canyon

* George W B winning another election

* Etc. etc.

The poor 'ol devil is to blame for all the bad stuff including (but not limited to):

* The greenhouse effect

* Rising interest rates

* Tsunamis

* Hangovers

* Nagging wives

* Baldness

* The plage

* Etc.

Funny list.

You should be writting for Comedy Central.......not that Jon Stewart needs any of our help.

[Tishabet]

Originally posted by stuartj
In December, a natural disaster took hundreds of thousands of the lives of gods beloved children. Why did god kill his children? He loves us. Where was god in Aceh in December? Did god send a great wave becasue the people in Indo, and Thailand and India and the Maldives had angered him?
.......
On a less dramatic scale, why will God allow innocent peope to die, say, in Iraq, tomorrow? Or at a high school in Minnesota? Why arent these innocents saved by divine intervention? Did god create these people in his image just to cause them to come to harm?

Where in the Christian doctrine is there any claim that innocent people won't die? It seems like you're equating God to an omnipotent being whose sole purpose is to keep bad stuff from happening. If that's your understanding of the Christian God, you're way off.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Tshabet
Where in the Christian doctrine is there any claim that innocent people won't die? It seems like you're equating God to an omnipotent being whose sole purpose is to keep bad stuff from happening. If that's your understanding of the Christian God, you're way off.

I think the statement sprang from the idea that most Christians fully believe that god is a kind, benevolent being that cares about people and if you pray to him, good things will happen to you. "We prayed and prayed for little Tommy's recovery and god answered our prayers" kinda thing.

Does he spin a big roulette wheel and decide who's going to die and who isn't? Did he care more about the people who survived the tsunami than the ones that didn't? Or does he even really care at all? Why pray to him at all if he has no interest in answering your prayer? If he has the power to do something about it, but he chooses not to, then he's a despot. If he doesn't have the power in the first place, then he's not very omnipotent.

I've never heard reasonable to answers to these types of questions that didn't follow the "god works in mysterious ways" logic.

Mike

[widebody911]

So why do people always thank Jesus for stuff, but never blame him? If the QB from the winning team says on TV that Jesus helped them win, then it logically follows that Jesus wanted the other team to lose, right? If Timmy and Tommy both have some horrible childhood disease, and everyone praise for Jesus to save them, but Timmy lives and Tommy dies, does that mean Jesus didn't like Tommy?

[dhoward]

Timmy was always Jesus' favorite...