North Korea's other secret weapons

[kach22i]

Semi-sebmergible boat:


http://www.specwarnet.com/asia/NKSF.htm
Semi-sebmergible boat: A fast, three-engined boat used for inserting small teams of commandos. WIth a top speed of around 50 kts, it will race at high speeds towards it's target and then submerge for the final approach.

http://www.specwarnet.com/asia/NKSF.htm

Hovercraft: 140 or so Kong Bang II and III that can carry platoons of snipers to battle.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/l-kong-bang.htm
Specifications
Variant Kong Bang I Kong Bang II Kong Bang III
Length 75.5 ft 68.9 ft 60.7 ft
Beam 29.5 ft 26.2 ft 23 ft
Maximum Speed 52 kts 52 kts 50 kts

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/navy.htm

Also operated by the navy are two amphibious surface sniper brigades. The North Korean navy has built over 140 hovercraft capable of carrying platoon-size units ashore in surprise landing operations. These landing craft can maneuver not only at sea, but also on tidal and mud flats and are capable of landing alongside the piers in most parts of the eastern and western coasts. They would be especially useful in areas where there is a wide difference between high and low tides along the western coast. These vessels also have a high survivability due to their good speed at 50 nautical miles per hour, and their forward deployment in both the East and Yellow Seas would greatly enhance North Korea's surprise landing capability in the early stages of a war.

http://www.korea.army.mil/pao/news/AntiSOF.html


NOTE: I have many books and pictures of Russian and Chinese hovercraft, but could find nothing on North Korean models.......guess I'll have to rely on James Bond to save the day.

[RoninLB]

cool thread.

also, afaik, there is a supersonic torpedo around, no kidding. I think summer of 2000 Scientific American had a big spread on it?

[dd74]

I think N. Korea's secret weapon is China.

[tabs]

The Chinese are not in love with N Korea....NK poses as much threat to Chinese goals of economic expansion as she does to the USA and Japan...Nobody likes loose cannons....they can too easily upset a good thing/apple cart. Get it....NK thinks they can get away wt stuff if they are only negioating wt the USA....divide and conquer, but if all 6 nations act in conjunction then NK has no place to go...but abide by whatever the 6 nations come up with...

[dd74]

Right, which is why China should step up and "talk" with N. Korea. The U.S. is so tired of being jerked by the N. Koreans, it's virtually ignoring their last admittance of having nukes.

I guess we could sweeten the deal by telling the Chinese to take care of N. Korea or we'll impose embargos, but that's asking a lot of our Wal Mart stalwarts.

[djmcmath]

The supersonic torpedo was a Russian idea, and it was supposed to have been a nuclear weapon, if the rumor-mill is at all correct. It fits with the Russian mindset of submarine warfare, really. The idea wasn't a first strike, but rather a counter-attack, a return shot down the bearing of an incoming enemy weapon. Actually, kind of a lot of Russian engineering was designed around the idea of absorbing at least one torpedo in an underwater conflict, and not knowing at all where the other guy was. Good thing, too, 'coz we've been known to be able to follow their subs from ... well, quite some distance.

Anyhow, I don't think we've been able to account for all of those old Russkie supersonic nuclear tipped torpedoes. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if NK had one or two floating around, though I can say that discovering one of those in the same ocean as my submarine would probably ruin my whole afternoon.


Dan

[Aurel]

The real threat posed by North Korea simply makes the invasion of Irak a bigger diversion of ressources and a worse precedent than it would have been by itself. I would even submit that the North Koreans, witnessing the US difficulties in Iraq, and understanding than the US military was already stretched to the max, felt encouraged in pursuing their nuclear ambitions, knowing far well that the US, at this point, did not have enough manpower to stand in their way. And Iran may feel the same way too...

Aurel

[tabs]

OHHHH BOY...Aurel you just can't get enough of Irwrack can U....NK would have persued it's policy regardless of Iran or Irwreck ....

[kach22i]

Originally posted by djmcmath
The supersonic torpedo was a Russian idea,

Well, The North Korean's do have some Russian weapons, Russia is the fourth largest arms exporter.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/26/japan.spyship/

TOKYO, Japan -- Japanese divers searching a suspected North Korean spy boat that sank in Chinese waters last year have found sophisticated weapons on board, including a Russian-made anti-aircraft missile, reports said Wednesday.

[djmcmath]

Ah, yes, the submarine launched anti-aircraft missile -- technology that we refused to develop because we knew the Russkies would copy it if we did it, and we had a lot more to lose than they did ... (sigh) Oh, well.

[kach22i]

The ball was droped back in the spring of 2003, did anyone notice? The stage is set, when will the play begin? We had to move troops because of Iraq - we are so screwed now.

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,2724.0.html
By SANG-HUN CHOE, Associated Press Writer

SEOUL, South Korea - The United States agreed Thursday to dismantle its bases and withdraw American troops from positions they have occupied for decades near the tense Demilitarized Zone separating South Korea (news - web sites) from communist North Korea (news - web sites).


AP Photo



The troops will eventually be moved to "hub bases" at least 75 miles south of the Demilitarized Zone, according to a joint statement after two days of talks between U.S. and South Korean officials. Even after the redeployment, however, U.S. troops will continue to train north of Seoul and close to the DMZ, the statement said.


The redeployment will remove U.S. military bases from the Korean front line for the first time since the end of the 1950-53 Korean War. Plans for the redeployment were announced amid high tensions caused by an international standoff over North Korea‘s suspected developments of nuclear weapons.


Officials gave no timetable for the withdrawal, reflecting persistent South Korean worries that any reductions would put it at greater risk of a North Korean attack. Most troops at the U.S. headquarters in the South Korean capital Seoul, 37 miles south of the border, will also be moved south.


Continuing U.S. military exercises near the DMZ "will mean that U.S. troops will continue to play the role of a tripwire to deter war," said South Korean Assistant Defense Minister for Policy Lt. Gen. Cha Young-koo, who led the South Korean side in talks with the Americans, led by U.S. Deputy Assistant Defense Secretary for East Asia Richard Lawless.


In April, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said U.S. troops stationed near the Korean DMZ could be shifted south, moved to other countries in the region or even brought home under a global realignment of U.S. troops. As part of that realignment, the United States has also announced it is removing most of its 5,000 troops from Saudi Arabia.


In Rumsfeld‘s view, the Cold War-era logic of having American troops near the DMZ, where they are within easy range of North Korea‘s heavy artillery forces, no longer makes sense. The relatively small number of U.S. ground forces there can provide a more effective deterrent to North Korean aggression, he believes, if they are positioned farther south.


Rumsfeld also wants to give the U.S. forces in Korea the flexibility to train for missions elsewhere in the region. U.S. officials have been discussing these issues with the South Koreans for months, as he studies U.S. troop repositioning possibilities elsewhere in the world.


Some have argued that the United States should not pull troops away from the border area unless the North Koreans reciprocate, but Rumsfeld believes the U.S. moves should be made regardless because they strengthen the U.S. defense situation, not weaken it.


South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun has said the withdrawal of U.S. troops should be a bargaining chip in any talks with North Korea on reducing its massive troop deployment along the border.


For half a century, the U.S. presence near the DMZ has symbolized the U.S.-South Korean military alliance and Washington‘s commitment to deterring hostilities on the divided peninsula.


The Korean border remains the world‘s most heavily armed. Most of the South‘s 650,000-strong military and the North‘s 1.1-million strong armed forces, the world‘s fifth largest, are deployed near the 2.5-mile-wide DMZ, which is guarded on both sides by barbed wire fences, mind fields and tank traps.


Most of the 37,000 U.S. troops in South Korea are stationed between the DMZ and Seoul, which is also within range of North Korean artillery.


The two sides will first move U.S. troops from about 15 bases near the DMZ to two major bases, Camp Casey and Camp Red Cloud, north of Seoul. That process could begin as early as this year.


In a second phase, the troops will move to "key hubs south of the Han River," which bisects Seoul, the statement said.


The two sides also agreed to relocate further south most of the estimated 7,000 troops from the sprawling 8th U.S. Army headquarters in downtown Seoul, though the headquarters itself will remain in the capital.


City residents complain that the base occupies prime real estate and worsens the city‘s chronic traffic congestion. Younger generations also see the foreign military presence in their capital a slight to national pride.


Rumsfeld‘s comments in April had created uneasiness in South Korea, which worries that reductions would put it at greater risk of a North Korean attack.

President Bush (news - web sites) and Roh met in May, and agreed that South Korea‘s growing economy allows the country to play a bigger military role in defending itself.

"When (the redeployment from the DMZ) is fulfilled requires further discussions," Cha said. "But you can see a broad picture of where we are headed."

Last week, the U.S. military said it would spend an additional $11 billion over the next three years to strengthen its forces in South Korea. The plan included improvements to intelligence collecting and weapons upgrades as well as deployment of special, swift-action forces.

North Korea condemned that plan as a preparation for war.

Thursday‘s joint statement said the United States and South Korea want to structure "U.S. forces in a manner that further promotes regional stability."

Edit/NOTE: Lots of good tech info here:
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/posts/3691526.shtml

[Leland Pate]

The supersonic torpedo was the first TS stamped documents I saw when I came in the AF. It wasn't until '01 when portions of what we knew about it ended up in Janes Defense.

It 'cavitates" (sp?) at (like a bad football pass) at incredible speed, causing so much friction the water around it turns to steam and the whole thing travels in a sort of air pocket.

It could be fired at an entire carrier battle group and make everything dissapear, just like that.

Not good.

Then the Russians needed money and put the plans on the open market.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Leland Pate


It 'cavitates" (sp?) at (like a bad football pass) at incredible speed, causing so much friction the water around it turns to steam and the whole thing travels in a sort of air pocket.

Then the Russians needed money and put the plans on the open market.

Wow.. super-duper cavitation.

so chances are that client states might have them.. wow.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by djmcmath

Anyhow, I don't think we've been able to account for all of those old Russkie supersonic nuclear tipped torpedoes. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if NK had one or two floating around, though I can say that discovering one of those in the same ocean as my submarine would probably ruin my whole afternoon.

From Russia with Love.. in real life.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Leland Pate
It 'cavitates" (sp?) at (like a bad football pass) at incredible speed, causing so much friction the water around it turns to steam and the whole thing travels in a sort of air pocket.

This is way different that what I thought you were talking about.

I imagined a torpedo that fliped out wings and became an air born cruise missle flying over the waves.

I just signed up to be able to view more pictures from "Janes" - very cool website.

I have Jane's: "Surface Skimmers 1976-77" and "High-Speed marine Craft and Air Cushion Vehicles 1987". Very expensive books that I've spoiled myself with over the years. Paid $175 in 1977, $350 in 1987, last time I checked it was nearing $600 for the book I wanted. I don't think most public libaries can afford these rates anymore.

[djmcmath]

With normal torpedoes, the amount of noise (via cavitation, engine noise, etc.) is significant. If you could produce a really quiet weapon, the target wouldn't know it was coming until it was too late. If you can hear the weapon inbound, you can at least make efforts at evasion, and you can probably get off a counterfire to make the other guy's life less pleasant.

With a 200kt nuclear torpedo, all of the standard rules go away. By the time you recognize the noise, it's _way_ too late. There's no time to even make a pretense of evasion. There's not a chance of a counterfire. There isn't even time to send a message saying "We're so f---ed." In the words of a famous coward, "It's game over, man!" Except that you probably wouldn't even have time to say that.

The only realistic hope is poor manufacturing causing failures in the gear. If they use roughly similar quality control on their nuclear weapons as they do on my slide scanner, we have nothing to fear.

[Serg]

UNDERWATER MISSILE.
The VA-111 Shkval (Squall) supercavitating torpedo, shown here being launched from a Russian Navy Oscar II-class submarine, rockets to a speed over 200 mph, which would give a targeted vessel little chance to evade it.

[Serg]

US PROTOTYPE WEAPON.
A future supercavitating torpedo based on U.S. Navy design concepts could feature a range of innovative cavitator, sensing, control and propulsion technologies

[Serg]

It is not good folks, a lot of people that do not like the US have this weapon.

Even the French have this weapon.

[kach22i]

Those weapons (torpedo's) pose little threat to SES (Surface Effect Ships) and are designed to destroy conventional displacement craft.

Look at all the latest Corvettes and Fast Attack Craft - all very stealthy. You have to find them (see them) first before you can kill them.

Here is the look of the future Navy - well according to some.

http://www.knmskjold.org/logg2003/englog2003.htm


More info:
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/fathom/issues/JanMar03/isskjold.htm

More evolutionary than revolutionary, the 3-year-old ship is the prototype for six such fast patrol boats (FPBs) to be built in Norway. All incorporate multinational technology. The ship is not an experimental craft because she was designed and built to meet specific requirements. Using a catamaran (twin-hull) design, Skjold is a rigid-sidewall surface effect ship (SES) that can sustain 50-plus knots and can operate in waters as shallow as 3 feet. With its light weight and two lift fans for SES operation, Skjold can lift about 70 percent of her weight out of the water, yet keep some "keel" in the water via her two hulls. The ship's high-speed capability could not be achieved with a traditional hull or catamaran design and without the lift fans. Having a minimum portion of the hull in the water reduces "skin drag:" friction created by the portion of a hull beneath the water's surface as a ship moves forward (or backward). Reduced skin drag thus allows for higher speeds.