.. .and what if a country had a large aging population . .. with a relatively small number of potential Doc's in the system?

Fint, trying to move a block of kids out of a school into other schools is a logistics nightmare. You'd need at least a years' warning to get portables ordered, select teachers, etc.

You don't think a school can just absorb kids into existing classes?

Look at a single class of 30 kids, and say ten parents want their ten kids to be added to that class because the teacher is great. It won't happen. The rooms are too small, and the teacher, though flattered, would tell you that he/she wouldn't do it as it would just be too much to handle.

Oh, and complaining to the principal does work. The fact that you dismiss it, indicates you are not really attempting to get rid of selected teachers, but are of a mindset that the system is broken and needs radical surgery to fix. It ain't so.

Bad teachers are a good thing.

They have a great purpose.

Kids need to learn early on, that supposed authority, the "to be listened to" experts, are just posing frauds with a title.

The sooner they learn that every proffesion has pathetic frauds, the better.

THAT is a lesson I have never seen in a text-book.

Bad teachers, bad administrators, bad curriculum..all should be disposed of...but currently there is no way to identify any of them unless they are teachers caught sleeping with students. School systems in the US are designed that way (the NEA sees to it) and colleges are similar (tenure). poor grades, test scores are easily explained away as the parent's fault. Once again, if schools had to compete with other govt and private schools for funds...things would change. As a monopoly, it is in their best interest to maintain stus quo. Of course that is why the liberals are so against a voucher system.

And there are the looney right wing parents who think that the liberals, communists and unions are all participating in a conspiracy to destroy america through the public education system.

Tell us more about this bad curriculum of which you speak? Is it the sex education and evolution they are exposing your poor child's defenseless mind to that has you all in a tizzy?

I for the most part agree Flint. Though I would add that it's likely a passive movement. I don't think 99% of those in education choose to suck:) Rather they are velocitized by the system. Heck I've said it many times here, good luck. It's simply taboo to suggest poor performance from anyone in education or other "public service" for that matter. Guess what....not all teachers just want to help kids, not all cops want to make the streets safer and not all firemen are selfless heroes. Unbelievable I know! But given my druthers I'll tip a few with the FD and PD:)

Oh, Expat....if that is really how you approach your job then kudos you are the prototype! In my many years in public education I did not know ONE single teacher that did what you say on anything near a regular basis. Most were closer to the exact opposite.

The low pay provided by most public schools guarantees poor teachers.

If you want to fix the major crux of the problem its pretty simple but too many cheap selfish bastards are against paying more into their public education systems.

Making school teachers "heavily compensated" is simple not realistic. So unless you go balls out on wages it will never be enough to not be used as a crutch. You need to work on the other drivers in human nature....vanity (recognition), pride, and maybe a little fear [gasp].

What pray tell is the current motivator of teachers? I mean at the most primal level.

It is a mix. Some go into teaching because they love it, and want to make a difference. Some go into it because it is the fallback position if their other plans fall through. Some go into it because it is the path of least resistance. My experience says the last group is pretty damn small.

Studies have shown that on average, private school students don't do better than public school students in college. imho most kids go to private school because the parents either want to control some aspect of the education/experience (ie religious schools), or want a "safer" school for their kids. The latter is a mix of reality and racism imho. Then their kids get into private schools with even less acountability and teachers that have no accreditation, etc. Just because it is private doesn't make it better.

Oh, and charter schools? Mostly marketing. Its all about the brand. And my son goes to a public charter school...but not for the charter, but rather because it is the local public school. now we did move specifically to get into a decent public school, but public nonetheless.

Whether it is a conspiracy or accident doesn't really matter...the problem is that no-one is happy. Teachers don't think they are respected or paid well enough; parents think that many schools and teachers are incompetent and children are not getting educated properly. It doesn't matter if the curriculum is liberal or conservative. If I want my child to be able to pray in school and learn the truth about Kerry and Fonda and you want your child to learn about threesomes with sheep and the communist manifesto..that is our right. Any parent that thinks public schools teach inappropriate materials should have the right to send there child and the money the school gets to educate their child...and send both to a school that teaches materials they approve of. Competition would improve schools for everyone.

It won't work fint - to get the "good" teachers, the "good" schools are going to have to pay them more. This will require more funding (ie, a top-up by parents on the average cost per student you want the govt to give you back for opting out).

This is just going to create a wider gap between elite and mediocre schools based on the wealth of the parents of children attending those schools - even wider than the current socio-economic gap that occurs.

You may think this is ok, but I don't. Education (at school level) is a public good, and I don't complain about what is spent on it out of my taxes.

Why don't you compare America's education spending (total govt spending) against military spending. That always staggers me...

Fint. You need to provide concrete examples of how any teacher/school has a political agenda. What exactly do you disagree with in what your children are being taught? And if you want to have prayer in the school then you really need to send them to a religious based school, not the public school system.
Is all this a ruse to get a voucher to send them to a religious school?

If any teacher was trying to teach politics, we would just complain to the school and it would stop, but I have never perceived any teacher to be doing that. Again, it seems you do not want to use the process available to solve your perceived problems, but just lambaste the system with innuendo.

Joel, again I submit that your experience is not the norm and that most teachers I knew and taught with were like Expat. And most teachers my children have had have done the same. I have only had issues with two teachers, and they left after complaints to the principal.

So much money is wasted in public schools now that it would probably save money. When I worked with many different schools (hundreds)in the US as a Regional Director for admissions......I was suprised to see that the average cost per student was much higher in the worse schools...and generally lower in the private schools....and the scores were very much higher.
You assume that poor students are stupid and cost more to educate. I disagree.

Why would I need to do that? As I posted, it really does not matter if they teach your politics or mine. They clearly should not teach either. But if I must..basically they teach the lefty view of things on this BBS, not mine. Teachers are the brightest people on earth..but way underpaid. Company CEOs are all corrupt and their money should be taken away and they should be jailed. Global cooling is ruining the Earth; global warming is ruining the earth, both are cause by conservatives. Taxes need to be raised. Socialism is preferable to capitalism. 911 is the US faullt, and we deserve what we got. We were a bunch of baby killers in Vietnam...military guys are stupid and just guys who cannot find other work. Hard working successful people are bad and don't pay their fair share, homeless people or folks on welfare are good and just victims of "the system." You should be able to have sex whenever, with whomever you choose. They even teach technique. Age, sex or species is irrelevant.
Once again, my children should not be taught your morals at school to counteract mine taught at home. Your children should not be taught mine. We should be able to choose our children's schools based on our own values.

But if I must..basically they teach the lefty view of things on this BBS, not mine.

I must stress that those lefty views could be considered in the middle somewhere.

Your list is your post's own worst enemy - I'd have a lot more sympathy if the average high school syllabus covered even half the items with the bias you state. Or more than just the part about sex... the other stuff is just a big laundry list of your grievances against people to the left of, or more liberal than you.

In real life, not BBS arguing, I'm probably considered a pretty conservative person. I'm white, married, earn enough to be taxed at NZ's top tax rate. I was private school educated, went to university and did pst grad in Finance. I work in the finance industry and go to (Catholic) church every week, plus help organise a young adults group and am involved in other youth ministry. I agree wholeheartedly with the vast majority of the Church's teachings.

I favour free markets where possible, and want the lowest, flattest tax rate that is feasible - I ask only for a safety net for those who either cannot, or will not, look after themselves in the way I would. I recognise that I have been dealt a good hand in life, and I can't condemn those who haven't. Yeah, I think corporates need to be controlled, that progressive tax systems are required, and this one will surprise ;) I think that government wastage is a necessary evil. I see it as an inevitable outcome of central control - something that can only be managed but not eliminated. Corporates have their own wastage ... govts are not alone.

But most of all, I believe in people. I believe the average person wants a better world and that we can all work together to achieve it. I DO NOT believe that society should give up on anyone. I especially do not believe that all people are going to help themselves when things are bad --> it's a strange mix of optimism and pessimism.

I am consistently amazed by how far to the right you sit from this. Plus, I am always a little amazed at your apparent disregard for those who would suffer from your schemes. To put it briefly, why don't you care about what happens to them?

You know, I would guarantee you that not one parent in my class would know what I do "out of hours".

As another example, I am the staff rep for our Student Council. We meet at 7.30am each Friday with a bunch of kids interested in doing things in the community and for the school. Not one of my parents have kids in this SC so I doubt they would have heard of my involvement with that.

As a parent myself, I have no idea what commitments my children's teachers make outside the regular contact hours. My guess is Mr Flinstone and others do not either.;)

You know, I'm getting more and more intolerant of whiners and negative people as time goes on. This bull**** about teachers being nimrods and schools being inefficient and taxes being too high and the mischaracterizations of American liberals (who by the way are probably "moderates" by all other Western standards), is the public/political equivalent of the sad, pathetic, oh-woe-is-me, everything-is-fuched-up whiners I see so often. Well, maybe real often and getting less often because I just cannot stand people who poop in their own living room. That is, if you have to make such a negative place of the world in your mind in order to have the life you want, then you'll have to stop expecting to see me around much because it's jsut not truthful, not productive and not my choice for viewing a world I have to live in.

Let me as you this. Are teachers unusual compared to folks in other walks of life? I mean, do any of you notice that there is a range of capabilities between humans in every profession, and a range of energy level and effectiveness? Teachers are nimrods? Compared to what?

ah crap - super & I agree on something. --the world is ending ;)

No, and that's the point. The system is what's different. Take a team of engineers and put them under the same setup teachers have and watch their performance go straight to hell.

Any job that you have no consequences and/or rewards regarding your performance will bring you down, common sense soupy:).

as a teacher & an engineer, I can tell you that is spot-on.

A good teacher (or engineer) has to perform well despite those crappy systems. However, If one does perform well in these systems, pressure is quickly brought to that guy, the one making the rest look like the slackers they are.

It is truely amazing how much effort some put in to keeping the mediocrity.

Ironic really; the way some strive so damn hard to become proficient at being mediocre.

I would argue it is the low starting pay... Those that sick it out are quite well paid, have excellent benifits and retire at half pay. Not bad compared to the white collar world around them.

The old timers control the unions and bleed the systems dry!

It is not only a money problem - I lived in Japan that is supposed to have such good schools - they had rickety wood framed buildings and coal stoves in the classroom.

Agreed! Good points.

Enron CEO's would have been much better CEO's . . . if only they had been paid more. :cool:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gaijindabe
[B] Those that sick it out are quite well paid, have excellent benifits and retire at half pay. Not bad compared to the white collar world around them.[B]

Actually, there are not "quite well paid". Go to the website for your local school district to see pay schedule. Benefits are the same as white collar world.

[B]
The old timers control the unions and bleed the systems dry!
[B]

What does this mean other than being a good sound bite?

To continue to beat the dead horse, I resolve everything to human nature. There are some very basic reasons people are motivated to do better or more tomorrow than they did today:

Businessman- power (self determination), greed, recognition, money, fear (total loss/humiliation) , etc..

Laborer- money, security, fear(termination)...

Fireman- recognition, *wild-card*

Teacher- I got nothing, I mean seriously...maybe shame?


*wild-card: This is something that I could not find the words for. It's that feeling inside of not wanting to let those around you down. You'll find it most in soldiers. You'll also find it in policemen and firemen. When a soldier runs through enemy to help a fellow soldier he isn't doing it for money, security, fear, or any of the other reasons above, it's unique. I would almost call it love but that's not right either as a fireman will run into a burning building for someone they've never met. Anyway, those are the extreme examples of the "wild-card" motivator. You can find them to a much lessor extent that you would almost confuse with competitive-spirit (say during training exorcises). Oh well, hope that didn't make sense to only me:)

Same as what white collar world? You've got to be kidding! Maybe 30 years ago, but not anymore. No one gets pensions anymore....NO ONE! And regarding healthcare, etc... still not close, can you find some that are similar, sure. But on average it's two different worlds my man.

I really hate to do this but as a labor relations person and former compensation analyst who is addicted to organizational behavior discussions, I probably agree with Len, Island and others. Workplace motivation is as interesting as sex (almost). I probably would downplay salaries as a huge issue, though there is some impact, no doubt. They may be related in terms of status.

Most of the teachers I know are devoted. And frustrated and not fully appreciated. Some of them are true professionals who can tell you what is needed (within the realm of possibility) in order to deliver an effective education. Unfortunately, parts of the solution would involve the parents. And there is where some of your criticism could be well-placed, frankly.

One of my daughters reports that a particular student's lunch, each day without variation, consists of two cans of pop and three or four candy bars. This kid is in the seventh grade. Now, let's see a show of hands, of people who would like to volunteer to try to teach this person something in the afternoons. Or even have him present in a room where teaching will be attempted.

There is another kid who is, and for years has been, completely consumed by how to commit the perfect murder, how to destroy all the world's computer systems at once, and other similar topics. This kid's attention cannot be diverted from these topics regardless of the techniques used by the teachers and the school. There is no money or other resources that currently can bring this young man into contact with a mental health evaluator or counselor.

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

But anyway, I digress. Yes, "OB" issues in the education system are interesting, and improvements can be made. Interestingly, on the cover of a recent edition of a local newspaper, there were stories of several local school closings for budget reasons ($20m shortfall) next to a story about a $2b transportation funding package being passed.

how about; stability (how many jobs have tenure locks)

how about; the same reason you are here posting here to school others. (?)
Teachers get to interject values. . . .ones of their choosing. Think "subversive liberal' here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevepaa
[B] Steve - we beat this to death in a previous thread. Most white collar workers do not retire at half pay, and not with full benifits..

Teachers that have been in the system a while do quite well. Maybe not stockbroker well - but they never get laid off either. That is a huge perk you might not have considered..

As for the unions - ask the old GF. She (a new teacher) enlightened me to this issue. Young teachers in NYC realize the same level of benifits is unsustainable - and see those retired and soon to retire as bleeding the system dry... They resent the older teachers and dont think these end-loaded perks will be there for them.

Yes, we did discuss this, but I see the same misinformation again.

Um, yes, white collar workers do get good retirements if they stay in their jobs 30 years.

Teachers get paid far less than you imply. Teachers do get laid off.

The other issue seems to be funding for retirement. Not that older teachers are actually doing anything other than getting older.

Joel
We went thought this on benefits earlier and I showed that they get the same as me.

Pensions still exist, even for new hires.

lol,

What I meant to get at is: what makes you want to get better at what you do, or simply to do more/better/faster. I understand why teachers would want the job, what I'm saying is, that once they have it there is no primal motivation for them to do it well. It's not their fault, and I'm not saying they are a special breed of losers, or anything like that. They simply get caught in a system that fails to motivate. And I'm not saying any motivation is good motivation either. I mean greed is "bad", but it can be harnessed for the greater good as well.

Sup said teachers feel unappreciated, and I can understand that. The system doesn't allow it. First the customers (you & I ) have no way to measure their performance and also no way to convey any appreciation even if we had some. It's just a ****ty system.

Most other professions are different. Do your job well and it helps/benefits those you work with and they'll usually let you know. I just don't see how even something that simple can happen for teachers.

I don't have the definitive answer on how to motivate in the school system, but I know zero motivation won't work.

NOTE: There are exceptions to everything I've said. Some parents will pay enough attention to tell when a teacher is doing a good job and convey it to them. Some teachers are able to create their own internal motivation and excel because it's all they know how to do...these are special and rare people.

Firefighters have a WAY better gig than teachers. WAY more time off, and only 25 years to full retirement. They even get paid while they sleep!

. . .talk about zero motivation to work.

misinformation? Retirement today is a lump sum. Those benifits and pension ties are cut my man. Teachers laid off? How often do school districts merge of close down?? As for as new teachers - you will have to ask them. I did not make this up, and I have never read about it in the media. The new ones resent the low pay and they blame the old ones.

I tend to agree, I have a couple buddies that are firefighters. BUT....again I was not stating the motivation to take the job, rather the motivation to do it well once you have it.

So just what are the metrics to measure firefighters performance?

They have what motivation?

Quite the opposite.

Nobody says 'oh , that fire could have been put out faster, with less smoke.' . . . and if the firefighters screw-up and kill themselves (a bit worse outcome than those teachers can manage) then the reaction is given some perverted Hero lable.

My district handed out over 900 pink slips, because of budget shortfall. When it is all over probably 20 teachers will be let go.

Yes, they resent the low pay, just as I did. They blame the older ones for acquiescing to the low pay. So what's new here.

"If you qualify for early or normal retirement you may be eligible to continue medical during retirement. The coverage provided and the cost of the plan may be different than your active employee coverage." Retirement is still available, and it is not a lump sum, but a monthly amount with health benefits, but you will pay more for the medical benefits than when you worked.

Yes I'm quoting myself...I'm that vain:)

No seriously this hit me after I typed it. Everyone wants to pay teachers more thinking it will change dynamic of people entering the field. I agree! 100% it would! However it would not change the quality of teaching because you have STILL not given them a motivator to do the job well once they have it. If they are great at what they do they wont make any more than if they aren't, so why strive for greatness?

Just increasing the pay scale won't solve a thing. We need to motivate AFTER employment.

Again I tend to agree, you're just much more bold:) But there is a brotherhood there, these guys really don't want to let each other down either day-to-day or when the **** hits the fan. Maybe some of that is fear of being looked down on or fear of not being respected, but I still think there is a spice there that's not normally found.

Steve,

I agree teachers are laid off, though they are usually on a hard list to get their job back when/if availible. But they never get laid off because of anything they did or didn't do (unless criminal), so it's not a motivator for them.

If the city says cut 40 teachers, they cut the last 40 teachers hired even if they were the best 40 teachers in the district.