To whom do we pray? Bush already has God on his side... :rolleyes:

Which statistics?

Why do people collect anything someone else thinks is on the fringe of relevance? If I had millions of dollars would I collect art, cars, whatever? I got into the gun collecting scene 15 years ago. Bought all kinds of cool (subjective) guns. My wife and kids enjoyed going out to the gun range and plinking away at cans, bottles, whatever. Over the years we lost interest. It has been 5 or 6 years since we have fired a gun. I don't think people buy guns with any ulterior motive. They are devices that obviously can do serious damage if aimed in the wrong direction. And they can stay in a closet untouched and forgotten. NO big deal.

Right. And the last major terror strike in the USA was a couple of planes flown into a couple of buildings.

Handguns would have been effective defense would they?

Not a professor of mine, per se, but a huge influence for me was this man:
http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poe...y/portrait.jpg
His name is James Dickey - award-winning poet and gun owner. Brilliance was dirt under his fingernails.

Whoa, you guys need to chill! It's an honest question. I'm not trying to stir the pot. As I wrote at the top of this thread, I'm NOT AGAINST owning firearms, I'm merely curious. However, some of you have a temper that downright scares the cr@p out of me knowing that you own a gun.

Yes, I've live in the Bay Area. Luckily, in a good neighborhood but that doesn't really matter does it? Criminals drive. I have an alarm system that's monitored and the cops get here quick.

I'm not advocating taking away guns from anybody. To each his own.

We have a kinder and gentler militant fascism than germany did.

For that reason bush would probably just torture us to death in his prison camps instead of executing us in mass.

Fortunately our limited remaining freedoms keep such things at bay for now.

The difference between genocide and civil war is just a few AK-47s.

And the difference between treason and legitimacy if someone ever FULLY exercised their 2nd amendment right is whether you win. Strange "law" - the right to be in a position to more effectively commit treason.

But anyway... I've been to the Bay Area (specifically SF) recently. I didn't feel I would have been any safer if I had a gun. Hell, I wouldn't know what to do with it. Moreover, I'd say virtually all you guys with a gun for self defence (and not police/armed forces) wouldn't know what to do with it either. I don't care how often you've been to the range and shot stuff. (edit) I worried this isn't clear. I'm implying that if a bad guy pulled a gun on you, the quickest way to get shot would be to pull one out too.

Just remember, guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people. People without guns usually just injure one another.

Phew, glad I got that all off my chest for about the 10th time on this BBS. ;)

Oh by the way, I think owning a gun for the sake of shooting at rodents, tins, selected minorities, polishing/looking at etc. is fundamentally cool.

Any other argument is just baloney. But I could be biased, we don't live in constant fear down in my neck of the woods.

Yeah, ditto - I like guns, don't get me wrong, its the attitude of certain people with them that I have problems with. Thus, they gotta be restricted in ownership.

Worst Genocides of the last 100 years which I found on some website, (this is just for reference, I have not verified all the numbers but here is another site of more recent atrocities: http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm)
My point is governments have a habit of rounding up people and killing them. Not just Hitler, but it seems to happen over and over and over. But it won’t happen here.

FYI, I didn't vote for Bush, and I don't pray.

Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000 (the purges)
Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
Mao Tze Dong (China, 1966-69) 11,000,000 (cultural revolution)
Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians WWII)
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Menghitsu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians
Charles DeGaulle (Algeria, 1954-1962) 1,000,000
Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000
Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
Suharto (East Timor, 1976-98) 600,000
Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000
Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1971) vs Bangladesh 500,000
Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000
Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000
Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000
Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000
Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) ?
Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) 220,000
Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) 200,000
Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-96) 180,000
Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) 150,000
Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) 100,000
Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) ?
Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) 60,000
Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) 40,000
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 (dissidents executed)
Francisco Franco (Spain) 30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war)
Hafez Al-Assad (Syria, 1980-2000) 25,000
Khomeini (Iran, 1979-89) 20,000

Understand. Just hope he doesn't force you into some sort of bizarre all male nude pyramid first. ;)

Exactly! You don't. So why are you so critical? In any event, there can be more to a gun than merely playing Dirty Harry.

Countries with gun control in that list: nil

In other words, that all happened while the populace had guns.

Another interesting thought. I wonder if Iraq's new constitution has the right to bear arms?

from dd In any event, there can be more to a gun than merely playing Dirty Harry.

Well yeah, there can, but I'm always incredibly disappointed that the mostly strongly pro-gun guys invariably display an unhealthy Dirty Harry mentality.

Your'e right Victor, because they haven't tried since September 11th....

Keep making the sheep noises....

I agree, you don't need to live in constant fear, they just practice in the Outback. That was where the Sarin gas attacks where planned that were carried out in Japan, so I guess you don't have anythign to be scared about.

Its a well know fact that 85.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Who has the Higher IQ between these groups is pretty hard to judge unless you know them. I have smart and dumb friends on both sides so there goes your argument. People with higher IQ's know better than to jugde someone before they know them, or do they? ;)

They don't need to - the job has been done.

I don't live in the outback, or in new zealand. I live in a metropolis of ~6 million people.

There was a Japanese sarin gas attack in Outback oz? WTF are you talking about?

I'm certain you don't know the legal requirements in all of those countries to own a gun. I don't. But I do know in Hitler's Germany, only the army and SS were alowed to have weapons. The jews had few if any, unfortunatley.

Here are a couple more quotes...

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. – Mahatma Gandhi, in Gandhi, An Autobiography, p. 446


64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday. :D

Against terrorists armed with box cutters? You betcher sweet ass they would have been! That is precisely why a buddy of mine, who is a pilot for a major USA airline, now carries a Sig in caliber .40 S&W when he's in the left seat. I know, locking the barn door after the livestock gets out. But IF those pilots had been carrying? 9-11-01 may not have happened. What's crazy about today's regs? He can carry the gun, but he'd be in deep doo-do if he had a small Gerber pocketknife I gave him. That has to stay home...The non logic of Government never ceases to amaze me...

Ah come on, the table is crap. I am happy to agree on Hitler's Germany - and in particular 6 million Jews in the Holocaust - as adding some minor weight to your argument, but not really.

I think that even if the Jews of Germany and Poland (and the other countries from which they were found and killed) had been armed to the teeth that they still would have been subjugated and/or exterminated by Hitler.

I also have no idea where the other 6m dead civilians due to Hitler comes from in that table.

Most of the African countries have little or no gun control. Even more widespread availability of weapons is highly unlikely to have stemmed the genocide their either.