Thanks Joey for the Elsie

[tabs]

Just another little something...an L C Smith Ideal Grade SxS in 12 GA...It lowest grade of the engraved guns made by LC Smith. Made from 1913 until 1950 with apx 21,000 made, with 17,000 in 12 GA. These are fine SxS made by a top American maker. This particular gun was made in 1927, and is in 90% condition with good case colouring left on the frame.

Elsies are vastly under priced in the market place, however with the publication of next years Blue Book of Gun Values that will be rectified. In the lexicon of American Classic SxS's Parker, Fox. Ithaca, LC Smith and the Winchester 21 all are synonymous with quality on the par with the English Doubles. These guns have been collected for years and the supply of good condition guns is drying up. Double shotguns have been appreciating rapidily over the past coupla years

[RPKESQ]

Although this is an nice example of a LC Smith. Your statement "American Classic SxS's Parker, Fox. Ithaca, LC Smith and the Winchester 21 all are synonymous with quality on the par with the English Doubles", is not accurate. Not even close.

English double guns (and German, French, Italian, Belgium, Austrian, etc., made for home markets) from the same period of production are all far ahead US as far as features, quality and durability. Don't confuse foreign production made for the US market. Foreign makers learned that of all industrialized countries only America lacked a national lproof law. So that anything was legal to sell, and they did by the boatload. Now reputable US makers did make and sell quality products, but not even close to what the European makers were doing for their home markets (who all had proof laws).

Americans will pay outrageous amounts for Colts and Winchester (all of which were mass-produced and machined) and they will pay these same high prices for American double guns, but that is just like the Barett-Jackson car auctions where Americans are paying highly inflated prices for mass-produced cars. It is quite a bubble that will not last.

By the way LC Smiths suffer from several design flaws that preclude heavy use without malfunctions. All these design flaws were solved by European makers much earlier than American makers.
The real reason why American doubles lagged behind in pricing in the marketplace was they lagged behind in quality. But the prices of quality European guns have shot throught the roof, so most mere mortals who wants a double is looking at the next best thing, and suddenly these second rate guns are rising in price too. "A rising tide, lifts all boats!"

[dd74]

Damn, Ted - for a moment I thought you'd misspelled the name:

Elise/Elsie

[Joeaksa]

Tabs,

Very nice looking piece!

Hey, got your email, am stuck in frigging Tripoli Libya with a broken airplane. Should be back in civilization in a day or so and will email then. Internet/email and cell phones are very difficult here.

Joe

[SXSMAN]

I know I have wood just looking at the photos .


So Tabs , should I hang onto one of My Browning B-ss SxS's in 12 bore in the fitted factory hard case or sell it ?

I have it's lil brother in 20 ga that is my every day go- to field gun , seldom use a 12 ga anymore . Find the 20 lighter and does the job for me .

SxS

[craigster59]

Great American SxS's? You left out Uncle Dan...

[tabs]

[QUOTE=RPKESQ;3784280]Although this is an nice example of a LC Smith. Your statement "American Classic SxS's Parker, Fox. Ithaca, LC Smith and the Winchester 21 all are synonymous with quality on the par with the English Doubles", is not accurate. Not even close.



QUOTE]

Both a Rolls Royce and Packard will get you to the same place. Your argument is really splitting hairs. Both exude quality (Be very careful here, it wasn't until the late 30's that Packard decide to cater to a mass market audience, until then it was a luxury line whose motto was "Ask a man who owns one." That basically sums up the better gun makers.

Of course I would take a Purdy, H&H, Rigby, Jefferys, Westley Richards or Boss in a flash. I would venture to guess that Purdy in its entire history hasn't made 21,000 guns. Your talking about a virtually handmade item vs an American item that is at best is semi mass produced. Where the real money in SXS's lie is in the embellishment the engraving, wood etc. There is little difference between a Parker VH Grade and an A1 Special except for the level of artistry involved.

Because embellishment is key to the high price of doubles and has nothing to do with funciton. I doubt that the American Doubles market is a bubble. Speculation in anything can cause a bubble which eventually deflates, I have been watching for that for quiet some time.

And of course you are an Old World Craftsmanship snob, so beware of your bias..

[tabs]

I have a cased Dickison 1/2 stocked Percussion rifle and a John Krider of Philidelphia. PA 1/2 Stock Percussion rifle of the same 1860's vintage. Both are of the highest quality, so you tell me which one is the better made?

[RPKESQ]

[QUOTE=tabs;3785649]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Although this is an nice example of a LC Smith. Your statement "American Classic SxS's Parker, Fox. Ithaca, LC Smith and the Winchester 21 all are synonymous with quality on the par with the English Doubles", is not accurate. Not even close.



QUOTE]

Both a Rolls Royce and Packard will get you to the same place. Your argument is really splitting hairs. Both exude quality (Be very careful here, it wasn't until the late 30's that Packard decide to cater to a mass market audience, until then it was a luxury line whose motto was "Ask a man who owns one." That basically sums up the better gun makers.

Of course I would take a Purdy, H&H, Rigby, Jefferys, Westley Richards or Boss in a flash. I would venture to guess that Purdy in its entire history hasn't made 21,000 guns. Your talking about a virtually handmade item vs an American item that is at best is semi mass produced. Where the real money in SXS's lie is in the embellishment the engraving, wood etc. There is little difference between a Parker VH Grade and an A1 Special except for the level of artistry involved.

Because embellishment is key to the high price of doubles and has nothing to do with funciton. I doubt that the American Doubles market is a bubble. Speculation in anything can cause a bubble which eventually deflates, I have been watching for that for quiet some time.

And of course you are an Old World Craftsmanship snob, so beware of your bias..

Beware, your lack of knowledge of European firearms is showing.

No bias, just plain hard truth. Anyone who has been inside of an European double and an American will say the same. Lack of proof laws meant that American makers had to build them heavier and machine made production meant much, much less refined designs were produced.

A Winchester 21 can be used as a hammer to drive nails, but that is not what I want a double to do. The rough finishing and boxy design is normal for machine made guns.

Quality is much more than pretty decoration. It has the most to do with proper functioning and reliability. If that (fancy finishing) is what you judge guns on, you are missing all the important things. And even at that, a Parker A1 Special is not engraved, finished or polished like a fine European gun. Never was.

Compare them side by side and the differences will jump out at you. Go inside both and you will stand in awe at the fit and finish where no one except the gunsmith and gunmaker will ever see. That is not possible to see in any American made double.

I still contend the large price increases in mediocre American firearms will not last. They certainly don't bring those kind of prices anywhere else in the world.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by tabs

I have a cased Dickison 1/2 stocked Percussion rifle and a John Krider of Philidelphia. PA 1/2 Stock Percussion rifle of the same 1860's vintage. Both are of the highest quality, so you tell me which one is the better made?

Both hand made, dufus!

[tabs]

The market for Winchester 21's is SOFT, because they are so heavy. Your arguement is basic 101 stuff. Of course handbuilt fit and finish is superior to semi-production work. DUH! I don't know if that can be said of modern guns and the precision of CNC machines.

The European Market is much SMALLER than the American market, so you can get away with Handmade gusns to adequatley supply that market, that can't be said for the larger American market which needs a larger production base. So U are arguing Apples and Oranges to a degree. Compare the best American Doubles to the European guns and both are substantial guns with good workmanship. Is a KORTH THAT much better than a Colt Python or a Freedom Arms. Are you willing to pay the difference in price for that difference in quality?

The large American market has a fondness for American made products, and because it is so large and relativily few higher grade US guns were made the price is driven.

I cannot get my head around saying a Rolls Royce was a better car than a High End Packard or Pierce Arrow. The quality was there in both. Remember Packard built the Rolls Royce Merlin engines in WW2. Also RR built cars in Springfield. MA in the 20s and I think 30's.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by tabs

The market for Winchester 21's is SOFT, because they are so heavy. Your arguement is basic 101 stuff. Of course handbuilt fit and finish is superior to semi-production work. DUH! I don't know if that can be said of modern guns and the precision of CNC machines.

The European Market is much SMALLER than the American market, so you can get away with Handmade gusns to adequatley supply that market, that can't be said for the larger American market which needs a larger production base. So U are arguing Apples and Oranges to a degree. Compare the best American Doubles to the European guns and both are substantial guns with good workmanship. Is a KORTH THAT much better than a Colt Python or a Freedom Arms. Are you willing to pay the difference in price for that difference in quality?

The large American market has a fondness for American made products, and because it is so large and relativily few higher grade US guns were made the price is driven.

I cannot get my head around saying a Rolls Royce was a better car than a High End Packard or Pierce Arrow. The quality was there in both. Remember Packard built the Rolls Royce Merlin engines in WW2. Also RR built cars in Springfield. MA in the 20s and I think 30's.

There are so many things here that you are not addressing.

First is your statement "American Classic SxS's Parker, Fox. Ithaca, LC Smith and the Winchester 21 all are synonymous with quality on the par with the English Doubles" This patently false. You have in your own twisted way virtually admitted this. Stop trying to wiggle out.

Or maybe you just don't understand quality in various different objects. For example, you have tried to compare two different hand made single shot, single barrel rifles as an example of trying to decide which quality is better. What kind of example (and the drivel concerning Rolls Royce and Packard) is that? We were speaking about double guns. Let’s try to stay on subject, alright?

Now, re-read your initial statement that I refuted. "American Classic SxS's Parker, Fox. Ithaca, LC Smith and the Winchester 21 all are synonymous with quality on the par with the English Doubles"; still believe it? There then, was that so hard to admit your error?

The reason you use to justify American paying huge prices for American massed produced guns is that the European market is smaller? Take your meds now, before you hurt your brain. People come from all over the world to Europe to purchase these fine guns, not just Europeans. Many Americans with the understanding of double gun design and construction quality (which you so obliviously lack) go to the auctions in Europe. So your argument holds water how?

Your limited understanding of gun making is quite apparent. "Of course handbuilt fit and finish is superior to semi-production work. DUH! I don't know if that can be said of modern guns and the precision of CNC machines". CNC machines are only as good as the people behind them, same as the hand tools for the handmade guns. Both will turn out as fine or as poor a firearm as the gun maker allows.

[tabs]

OK I AM WRONG. DEAD WRONG. Quote me if you like. Happy Now...TABS IS WRONG...

The statement about the Dickison and Krider rifles was rhetorical. Both rifles were handmade and the quality is about equal... so you tell me which one is better? Toss a coin? Get it now?

America has a large population that owns guns and semi-production is more suited for the demand here in America than in Europe where gun ownship is more limited and high end stuff even more so and one off suits the demand. This is more of a philisophical/mindset statement. Question is could Purdy and H&H together match even the demand that Parker filled. The answer is no ithey couldn't, they are custom one off production.

Purdy and H&H are the top of the heap, always have been. However the Americans of the 1st 2 quarters of the 20th Century built some fine guns as well. The difference is that the European guns are custom workshop guns, whereas the American guns are primarily factory guns that had custom shop facilities. Most of the custom shop gun makers in America couldn't compete with the factory makers, so they disappeared before the turn of the 20th century. In the 20s you had the emergence of Griffin & Howe, AO Neidner, Robert Owens, Hoffman which built mostly rifles that were of superlative quality and accuracy.

I really have not been interested in Doubles until recently. However I do have several Rigby rifles. Manlichers and various other assorted English and European firearms.

It goes without saying we are talking about competent people running a CNC machine which can mass produce a high quality gun that that would take hugh amounts of time to creat in a one off shop. Thats a matter of high tech for ya. That is what that statement means. However High Tech has a bit of soullessness to it in my opinion.

BTW: All those fking spoons that I polish are custom shop spoons. Hammered one at a time by hand.

PICK AWAY..

[Mule]

Damn Tabbie, it don't appear you know much more about antique guns than you do about cigars! A Man of Wealth & Waste?

[craigster59]

I say duelling pistols at dawn, 1 American..1 European.. at 20 paces

[Mule]

Maybe you could find a suit to pay too much for, to go along with the guns & cigars.