Bob, as you can plainly see, there was NO spin whatsoever in my reply to tw's question. He asked, I answered. Simple as that. A dem/liberal was in the whitehouse when all three of the wars I cited were entered by the US.

True the Japanese hit us first at Pearl Harbor. But then again, there was a group of 19 terrorists, representing a much larger organization of terrorists that "Pearl Harbored" us just a few years ago.

In the most recent attack, the organization was not representative of a single soveriegn nation, but we've all already been through all of this. Perhaps "terrorism" is in fact the "red menace" of the 21st century. Do we sit back and let it spread? Personally, I would rather we didn't.

Randy

Randy:

Didn't say we should. But, on the other hand, if these wars of the past were somehow or other begun by democrat administrations for, at the time what were considered to be "noble reasons", one must still face the fact, rightly or wrongly, that in all three cases the US (and others) were invited in by the country that perceived itself as under attack. Fair or not, this ain't the case in Iraq, no matter how the data are spun. Had we really wanted to go after the country where most of the folks from 9/11 came from, we should have started with Saudi Arabia.

No argument aboiut the good or bad being accomplished. There are two asides to every coin. Read my other posts. I am not anti Bush; I am anti some policies, bith domestic and foreign. But, because I do not fall lockstep, I have been considered as somehow unpatriotic and worse. That is wrong headed and unproductive. There should be room for dissent in any civilization otherwise you have a totalitarian state.

"There is a vast difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable"

Well, more proof on how ignorant the liberals are. So, what happened to all the weapons what were
UNACCOUNTED for after the first Gulf War, did they just fade away?? Saddam sure did play some game, and after 9/11, we aren't going to take chances. Ask the passengers on the South Korean airliner that was bombed years ago, how a bomb was placed on board in Iraq?? And on terrorist, what about these;

According to a report last year by the Hudson Institute, the short list of terrorists laying low in Iraq would include:
• Abu Nidal. Before Osama bin Laden arrived on the scene, Nidal was the world's most notorious terrorist. His terror gang is credited with dozens of attacks that killed over 400 people, including 10 Americans. He also threatened to kill Lt. Col. Oliver North.

Abu Nidal moved to Baghdad in 1999, where he was found shot to death in Aug 2002. Rumors swirled at the time that Nidal was rubbed out by Iraqi intelligence because he knew too much about Saddam's terrorist activities.

• Abu Abbas. Abbas masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship, where wheelchair-bound American Leon Klinghoffer was pushed over the side to his death. U.S. troops captured Abbas in Baghdad on April 14, 2003. He died in U.S. custody last year.

• Abdul Rahman Yasin. Yasin was Ramzi Yousef's partner in the 1993 World Trade Center bomb plot, aiding the al Qaeda explosives mastermind in prepariing the bomb that killed six New Yorkers and wounded 1,000.

In 1996, an ABC News reporter spotted Yasin outside his government owned house in Baghdad. The key WTC 1993 co-conspirator remains at large.

• Khala Khadar al-Salahat. Al-Salahat, a top Palestinian deputy to Abu Nidal, reportedly furnished Libyan agents with the Semtex explosive used to blow up Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. The attack killed all 259 passengers, including 189 Americans. Al-Salahat was in Baghdad April 2003 when he was taken into custody by U.S. Marines.

• Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Zarqawi was training terrorists in Afghanistan for an attack on the U.S. embassy in Jordan when the U.S. defeated the Taliban, forcing him to flee. He relocated to Iraq, where he set up terrorist cells in the Northern part of the country.

In an indication that he enjoyed the status of guest of the state, Zarqawi was reportedly treated for a leg wound at one of Saddam's exclusive private hospitals.

After years of media reports denying that Zarqawi had ties to al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden himself dubbed Zarqawi his chief of operations in Iraq last year.

Pretty much nonsense.

Bush1 did a good job of destroying WMD manufacturing capability. The notion that Saddam had a lot of WMD was part of the propaganda wave to get upport for the invasion in the first place. He didn't have it. If he had, he would have used it.

The notion that 5 or 6 terrorists are in a country of 26 million is the thinnest in a long line of thin of rationalizations for attacking it. Not to mention most of the anecdotes are just plain wrong.

Abu Nidal was a bad guy in the 80s, but no act were ascribed to his organization since 1986, excepting the assassination of two minor middle eastern officials.

Abu Abbas -- another bad guy who hadn't done anything since "masterminding" a cruise ship hijacking in 1985.

Abdul Rahman Yasin. American citizen. Not "al Quaeda." Just another anti-semite whose #1 target was Jewish neighborhoods. Fled to Iraq after 1993 WTC bombing, where they threw him in prison.

It seems that no conservative ever manages to retain the fact that "al Qaeda" is a name invented by the CIA in 2001, and didn't exist before, and doesn't really "exist" as a membership organization now.

Al-Salahat is a suspect in the 1988 Pan Am bombing.

Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Now ther's a mystery. not an OBL ally, but a rival, and as Newsweek said: "As it turns out, the report of medical treatment wasn't even credible to begin with. According to U.S. intelligence, Zarqawi had a leg amputated in Baghdad. Except that most sources now believe Zarqawi is equipped with two working legs. As Newsweek colorfully put in in early 2004, "The stark fact is that we don’t even know for sure how many legs Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi has, let alone whether the Jordanian terrorist, purportedly tied to al Qaeda, is really behind the latest outrages in Iraq."

So even if all one terrorist and five former terrorists were hanging out there, they don't add up to a reason to sacrifice thousands of U.S. lives.

[/B][/QUOTE] So even if all one terrorist and five former terrorists were hanging out there, they don't add up to a reason to sacrifice thousands of U.S. lives. [/B][/QUOTE]

Do you even know anyone who serves this country and has been there??? Most would disagree with you. It only takes one terrorist with a NK or Russian supplied dirty bomb to take out one US city, I just hope it is on the West Coast when it happens, but since that is where most of their support is from, I don't think that will happen, NYC is where it will happen, when it happens again. Of course, you don't think that will happen, just like people don't get away with smuggling Coke into the states and other stuff out.

It only takes one terrorist with a NK or Russian supplied dirty bomb to take out one US city, [/B][/QUOTE]

Byron, that's just plain silly. with 3%* of cargo entering our ports being screened, you just need to ship it to Miami to take out the city. No terrorist needed.

Thanks to GWB taking his eyes off the real threats, getting your hands on a dirty bomb from NK or Iran is easier than ever. I think you can even save and get the family pack.

* Source: Ex-Coast Guard Commander now consulting with the Admin on port security here in Boston.

That's the silliest thing I ever heard. If one terrorist is rationalization enough for invading any country, we'd have to invade, oh, I don't know... about 130 countries...

Byron, that's just plain silly. with 3%* of cargo entering our ports being screened, you just need to ship it to Miami to take out the city. No terrorist needed.

Thanks to GWB taking his eyes off the real threats, getting your hands on a dirty bomb from NK or Iran is easier than ever. I think you can even save and get the family pack.

* Source: Ex-Coast Guard Commander now consulting with the Admin on port security here in Boston. [/B][/QUOTE]

Who says they will use a port, BTW, I agree with you about Miami, it hasn't been an American city since the 80s. Funny, I also get a lot of my info from a former (not ex like the guy in Boston) Coast Guard Commander and currently a rock musician. China still has an eye on NY, and Iran has backed down since GWB showed that America still has balls, even with all the liberals. Still, do any one you know anyone who currently and proudly serves this county???

Quote:

Still, do any one you know anyone who currently and proudly serves this county???

Byron, what's the point?

My son voluntarily deployed six months after the towers and his best friend just got out of the Navy and reenlisted in the AK ANG. I'm a veteran, and socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I happen to have many friends that are Vietnam veterans, Panama and Grenada veterans, and Desert Storm veterans. While Americans fully support our men and women in uniform no matter were they serve, the same can not be said for the president.

if the religious belief that no one should ever be killed under any circumstances.. for any reason what so ever. And that person doesn't know about that "truth" and so is trying to fake not becoming a formal rep for that "truth". Then that person is thus, not able to discuss strategic policy with a clear head.

Byron: Just curious:

Have you served your country? And, if not, would you if called upon like many of us here have done? I agree with CRH911S.

Seems as if the most warlike are those who never served. Of course, I could be wrong....

Ronin..I think I get your point, but I am not sure.

That's my impression, as well, remember the late, unlamented Mulholland?

Are there any Western religions that don't believe in killing? Jesus Christ, they are all based on killing. FYI, in IL, they found a 50% mistake level in death penalty cases.

(AP)--In a rare split with religious broadcaster Pat Robertson, the Rev. Jerry Falwell said he cannot support his fellow conservative's call for a moratorium on the death penalty.

In fact, Falwell said, he believes the appeals process for prisoners should be speeded up.

``Pat and I do not disagree on many things, but on this one we do,'' Falwell said in Tuesday's Richmond Times-Dispatch.

``While courts do make mistakes, I do not believe the mistake level is at the point where we need to rethink our whole system, and I personally believe that we need to reduce the time between conviction and execution.''

Robertson, speaking Friday at the College of William and Mary, said that while he believes the death penalty is morally justified, he sees it being administered in a way that discriminates against blacks and the poor and doesn't provide enough opportunities for mercy.

As someone who "currently" is serving, I think it is safe to say that most military folks support our actions very strongly. Of course, most of us get a lot more information/intel and don't have to rely on Move On, Al Jazeera and other wacko internet sites for it.

fint: I served too, 6 years in the Coast Guard. I do not think this, in any way is either relevant to these discussions or makes me an expert in interdiction or "terrorism".

Strange as it may seem, I have never keyed on MoveOn or any of the left or right wing spin sites. Both are equally biased and both are equally wrong.

Fint, I doubt your propaganda sources are superior.

You may be the most consistent poster of wrong information on Pelican.

You may be surprised that most of the folks you debate here not only dont' depend on "Move On, Al Jazeera and other wacko internet sites", but don't even visit them.

Kinda reminds me of Colonel Flagg on "M.A.S.H."

Once again I am shocked that the average joe accountant or used car salesman thinks he has a better idea about what is happening in the military/Iraq than the guys who do it for a living. Maybe you should apply for a job with the Dept of Defense. What you really mean is that my opinons do not match your opinions...and as such...are wrong. I have 26 years of recent active duty, am an officer in the reserve and currently work for DoD...so clearly guys who spent a couple of years in the military 30 years ago would know more about the current situation than I would..LOL. I see the intel...I saw our actual "planning documents" for our Iraq campaign. (no, it did not resemble anything you guys post on the internet). I have a major who works for me who was a "weapons inspector." I work daily developing tactics, techniques and procedures with military folks who have spent most of the last couple of years on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. Apparently you guys feel you are somehow better informed because you can find some website with various conspiracy theories, etc...written by someone who has never left LA, or San Francisco..or are terrorists themselves..LOL At best, they are "in country" filing reports from the Palestine Hotel. Face it, most of the people that really know the score do not have anti-war websites....

Ya know, fint..there was a senator on tv not too long ago with the same mindset:

"I know more than you but I can't tell you".

The most feared words in the English language: "Trust me. I know what I'm doing".

Please do not denigrate those who served 30 or more years ago and came home to ridicule and rotten eggs. There is a BIG difference between planning safely behind the lines and actually observing first hand what is going on. Heck, as far as any war goes, even Generals cannot agree on proper action (even now). And, as a member of the armed forces, you do (or did) take your orders from superiors that may or may not have known what was going on. The "good old biy's club rules even in the military. You say you have information that does not match what others post. That may be true, but like I have said so many times, there is another unprovable. We are asked to "take your word" that your cites are superior.

If what you say is true, I respect the service you have performed. But even that is an unprovable.

Sorry, but I don't know who Col Flagg is/was.....but, of course, I did not learn about the military by watching MASH (or even the Discovery or History channel). By the way, MASH was fictional and a parody...I thought everyone knew.

Colonel Flagg had all the answers and saw a commie under every tree.

As far as fictional goes remember "History is fiction written by the victors" Nothing more, nothig less.

Still, you do not address the issues, do you?

Sheesh.

Please feel free to use sarcasm as required.

BRAVO! BRAVO!

I did not say that..and you know I didn't. I did not disparge anyone's service...trashing ones country or military is a liberal thing, remember? On the other hand, having served for most of the last 30 years, I can definitely tell you that things are not much like they were when I first came in the service as an E-1. I don't ask you to "trust me," or take anything on faith...I never post anything that is not easily availble or obvious to even the most casual observer. I cannot...and stay out of prison. Clearly a military person who has any firsthand knowledge that is not currently available from other sources cannot divulge it here. It just seems odd to me that folks on this BBS post that "my information is cosistently the most wrong on this bbs" when they are discussing areas where I have over 30 years current experience and they have squat....I am only pointing out the obvious because I am tired of being insulted. It is funny how anyone who disagrees with liberals are portrayed as liars or as stupid...from the President...down to the lowliest GI. If anything the liberals posted here were actually even close to true, the war and the administration would not have such strong support from the military..who are there and see it firsthand.
Face it, experience is important...even in sorting through info and BS on the web. If your barber told you about a great info source about Porsches and Bruce Anderson.(or Wayne for that matter) told you it was hogwash and recommended another as more correct...which would you choose?
If you are questioning my military service...or even what I do now...that is easily proven. It is really no big deal...it is just what I do. I cannot understand why you would question it...I do not question your service in the Coast Guard. In fact, if you go back far enough, you would find that 150HP930 did the same a while back and I posted the documents proving my service....Although he had never been the service...he felt that since I did not agree with him that I clearly must be lying about what I did for a living. You imply the same. What is it about liberals that makes them think that anyone who does not agree with an opinion they somehow formed with zero experience and little more information is clearly a liar and charlatan?

Which issues?

Hahahahahaha!

If there was no Fint, we'd have to make him up. He's in Vegas(?) and claiming everything everyone else posts is sourced from people who aren't in the theater of combat? Writing comedy is hard for most folks.

Fint, as the source of so much misinformation on Pelican, are we to just roll over and on your sayso, assume that you know about things that people in the administration, people in foreign governments, and reporters "on the ground" in the middle east don't?

Instead of inventing imaginary 'wacko sites' on the internet, why don't you simply take one of the statements of our 'lefties' and tell us what's wrong with it?

I've already made a short list of the wrong things the 'right' has postulated.

Oh, and if you even care about what the left said before the Iraq invasion, here's a page you can look at:

http://elandslide.org/elandslide/petition.cfm?campaign=iraq

Excerpt:
"7. The US does not have the capability to occupy Iraq and run a democratic government. Even in Afghanistan, the US-imposed government has no control outside of Kabul, despite large numbers of US and other allied troops. This undemocratic government has been paralyzed by assassinations by rival warlords. Moreover, the heroin industry - which is so devastating to the US - has resumed production."

First of all, I am not in Vegas. Did you think the "location" thingy changes every time you leave town or the country? Sheesh!
The US does not wish to "run" a democratic government in Iraq. It expects Iraq to elect and run it's own government...as it is doing. You guys clearly don't even know the maeaning of democracy. The Afghan govt seems to be doing quite well in my estimation...what do you expect with such a short period as a democracy...even the US had growing pains as did post WW II Europe and Japan. Is there no common sense on the left?

When Desert Storm stared, I went to sign up, now, I had a good job, been to college and a nice home & Porsche. I was diagnosed with asthma, I hadn't had it as a child, I grew into it in my mid Y's, so I was rejected. I tried to join the reserves for this conflict, but the medical condition kept me out, that and I'll be 40 this year. Now I'm making a lot more money than I was in 1990, but my union democrat father taught me right from wrong. Many of my closest friends serve/served this country, many made it their career, from W.W.II, Korea, Nam on, that is were I get my impute from, some enlisted to a retired Pentagon Col. From single hitches to 40 years, those are the people I listen too. From people who have been there, up front, on the stage, those are the people I listen too. One of my best friends, a retired officer, has joined the reserves BTW, thanks for your service in the CG.

You have to ask??

LOL!!! http://elandslide.org/ is one of the biggest nutball sites that I have ever seen. Funny that any rational person would quote a site that claims that our government knew 911 was coming and intentionally allowed/aided the terrorists as one to prove that the left's "wacko sites" are somehow imaginary....talk about tinfoil hats! No wonder you guys are so screwed up if you believe thast sites like that are accurate. LMAO!

Much Lib rantings come from a group in the process of being displaced. 'Nam started as a Lib Dem war. When they turned against it they justified the assertions as a higher morality. Military force was deemed immoral and American power was immoral. Bush attempting to assert American values as universal values challenges the Libs self image. They are in a consrant state of denial that Iraq and Afghan might succeed.

Currently the Rep's are watching the Dem Party's takeover by the far left. The prob is that the Dem's have no policy ideas other than bigger gov't. Their basic beliefs that Washington can endlessly improve people's lives has lost its appeal. Basically the Dem's is unable to cope with demands from its frustrated voters. The Dem voter base is being realigned into the Rep party. If this realignment of the voters is permanent history might consider the 2004 election as consolidating this realignment.

Racer: At least you tried. For that I am grateful.

ROnin: Do you really believe paragraph 1? As to paragraph 2, both parties have morphed over the years and to Republicans and Democrats from the 60s, they would not believe what has happened.

fint: "so clearly guys who spent a couple of years in the military 30 years ago would know more about the situation than I do..LOL"

At least you are consistent. And scary. AS far as issues, the "I know more than you do" mantra is unacceptable as a response. It may be true, but it is a cop-out because like so many of your comments, it can neither be proven nor disproven.

Cheers to all. Try to remember that most of us here (posters from other countries excepted, of course) are Americans and very interested in the survival of the country.

But, seems as if there is no room in your mind for people like myself who question the motives of both sides. Strangely, personal rants from the left seem a bit less strident overall and I wonder why this is so.
There is a big difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable.

Thanks Money, and one thing about 30 guy, many still have friends in high places, so intel can still be very good.

Happy & safe 4th guys :cool:

Fint, do you ever answer the question directed to you?

You asked if the 'left' had anticipated the problems in Iraq. I found a vintage post and directed you to it, and instead of saying "oh, well I guess some on the left foresaw some of the problems in Iraq," you decide to explore the site (which is more than I did) and completely ignore the reason I pointed you there.

Who cares what else is on the site? I can play the same game with everything you post -- if you ever post any factual backup whatsoever.

You asked for contemporaneous commentary from the 'left' and I sent you to it. Can you perhaps admit you were wrong? Once?

You're right fint. You say you are in Vegas, then you say you arent' and laugh at anyone who believed what you said. Whatever.

That's pretty consistent.

Fint, the meaning of democracy is being spelled out for you in Iran. And in Lebanon. Here's a bulletin: "Democracy" doesn't mean 'friendly to the West.' Democracy means people get the government they want, and in these countries, that is anti-western values.

Afghanistan is far from a fully-realized democracy, with a hand-picked oil industry consultant running the government, after a troubled election, and with 85% of the country outside the control of that government.

Karzai, in fact, has played a key role in the huge increase in opium production in Afghanistan. But that's all good, right?

We'll see what happens in September...

Meantime, here's a question for you: how many U.S. troops died last Tuesday in Afghanistan, and what group is claiming 'credit' for their deaths?

Quote:

Who says they will use a port, BTW, I agree with you about Miami, it hasn't been an American city since the 80s.

Byron, what kind of city is it?

That is pretty dishonest! But not unexpected. Once again you attempt to smear me by misstating/misquoting me. If I say that I am in Vegas...or anywhere else for that matter....it doesn't mean that if I say I am somewhere else a week, a month, or a year later that I misled anyone. Do I need to ask your permission to travel?...and, in-fact....I actually posted on this BBS that I was out of the country...LOL.....I was just at the SF airport returning from my overseas deployment and lots of folks were traveling to other places. Don't you ever leave Fantasy Island?

US Public Hospital Casuality Count

90,000 people die of hospital-acquired infections annually. More than half of these deaths may be preventable.

180,000 elderly outpatients die or are seriously injured by drug toxicity. Half of these incidents may be preventable.

7,000 patients die from drug errors each year.

554 errors in four months were found at one six bed intensive care unit; 147 were potentially serious or life-threatening.

Fint, is there a point to your self-centered ramblings?

Do you want to avoid -- once again -- responding to any question about your misstatements?

I thought it was funny that you reposted the exact same thing a second time in another thread, as if an opinion piece posted on NewsMax was even slightly legitimate. You didn't deal at all with the misstatements in that piece.

Of course, you never respond when your misstatements are pointed out. You change the subject.

Oddly enough, that kind of behavior exactly mirrors what Rumsfeld & Co. are doing in the middle east.

If English is your 1st language, you are treated like crap, if you go into a fast food restaurant and don't speak spanish, you won't get served, if someone ask you a question and you don't know what they are saying because they don't speak English, they get very pissed off and go off on you (this happened to a friend's wife a few months ago, and she is one of the sweetest people to walk the face of the earth) That is just one reason that Miami isn't really an American city any more. A long running joke in FL. is when the last American leaves Miami, don't forget the flag.

LOL, Yeah. You are the same guy that said we successfully had a "hit to kill" anti-missle test back in March and you qoted some defense article to prove it, which it didn't and it wasn't.
Next time I see my CIA friend who is over there, I'll get some real skinny. You just have opinions.