Watching Fox post speech coverage, it turns out that Bush staffers in the back started clapping toward the end and that's why the soldiers did too.

Conflating Iraq and 9/11 is one thing, draping yourself in the backdrop of the military (support our troops) to justify your position, and then get them to applaud for you when they were explicitly told not to, is just plain shameful. Clinton has nothing on Bush in terms of lack of ethics and morality.

Bush, among other things, is setting up the voters to dump some more Dems in the '06 mid-term elections. Most Dems are on the record for promoting a "quagmire" sic of sorts in Iraq.

Iraq's constitution is set to be in place for their election of the permanent freely elected representatives in Dec. The slow and steady advances in social, political, and military areas is the hang man's rope that will increase the Reps beltway lead.. and the poor DNC followers will need a better message to the voters than failure. Hopefully the center Dem politicians like Joe Liberman will straighten out the mess the Dems have created for themselves.

Yes, Bush should be ashamed that soldiers love him...the bastard!

Where can I download that barfing smiling face? Crowds in general are sheep, they follow any leading action. Soldiers, really 18-year-old boys, are trained for follow leading action.

Puuuhhhleeeezzze!

len, you weren't filled with pride and gushing over the bush's speech? You're really pleased with the progress? with the 1700 dead soldiers? wtih the ROI on $200+B?

If in the end we get a stable democratic Middle East, 1700 dead and $300 billion will go down as the greatest return on investment in history.

WTC cost the US economy about $200-300B.

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

yeah really. The estimates were $500B world wide. These numbers don't even include the costs of the war either.

See above. :rolleyes:

Len, forget the Middle East. Oil is limited, it's use to us is minimal. If we had taken that $200B and put it into any other fuel research, like H, it would have been significantly better spent in the long term. Don't think 5 years out, which is about the time China will be crushing us economically, think 25 years out.

You've got to see the bigger picture: oil is limited, therefore the Middle East is of limited importance to us. If we are out of the Middle East, terrorists have a lot few reasons to attack us (see OBLs fatwah). Therefore, the money invested in Iraq will return no ROI. However, the money invested in Iraq, borrowed from the Chinese, is actually hurting our long-term viability as a super-power. If we had invested that $ on anything that would return anything to this country as a whole, vs. a few oil and contracting companies, the long-term would benefit. What if we spent $200B on:
Information flow infrastructure
Schools
Renewable energy

Would $200B set us free from oil? No, but it would have been a great kickstart in starting a H fuel cell based transportation infrastructure and then private enterprise would fill in the gaps.

THINK BIG PICTURE!!!! Do I have to run for President?

From another thread you may have missed:

China is loaning us $2B every day to keep our "strong economy" afloat and let us play in the Middle East. China is our bankers. Hard to negotiate with them from a weak position.

China is building a significant defense infrastructure, pouring $ into it at an alarming rate, with seemingly no outside threat.

China doesn't play by WTO rules RE: quotas, price fixing, etc.

China is not a democracy or any version of a free society. State owned and run companies are common.

China artificially fixes its exchange rate which undervalues the yuan by as much as 40% against the standard float with international currency demands.

Why is China buying U.S. companies? To obtain western brand names to market Chinese exports AND to grow a raw materials/natural resources base to feed their booming economy. Ever build a track car vs. buy someone elses? Same principle applies. China is buying companies worldwide that are in oil, steel, minerals, etc.

Chinese companies regularly steal the intellectual property of U.S. and other Western Countries. Since our economy has transitioned from mfg. to intellectual proptery, if China takes these ideas and puts them into mfg., we lose big!

China has an unlimited labor force that will work for $.30 per hour. Note the decimal. China is building a middle class on the backs off ours. By buying internationally established brands, China can leverage it's labor force cost advantages AND move up the value chain.

China backs up state-owned companies with special treatment allowing them to compete with an unfair advantage in any bidding process.

Ron, there is absolutely no credibility to these statements. NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't mention oil......

I don't know what China has to do with my argument.

Also, how does our rate of borrowing compare with our historical borrowing as a percentage of GNP? Do you care?

Didn't you guys say this about Japan in the 80's?

I thought we were discussing the war in Iraq and W's speech.

I went bigger picture, sorry. All this WMD crap, terrorism, etc. is bunk and meaningless to discuss. It's all about the U.S. as an economic superpower and how Bush has set into motion our downfall.

Japan? C'mon Len, does Japan have a few hundred billion workers who earn $.30 an hour? historical borrowing? see ROI. When you borrow and burn, you get burned in the long run. Remember the internet bubble a few years ago? It applies here too. the U.S. has become the ultimate internet company.

Re-read the text.

I enjoy you enthusiasm for sure but you have to broaden your info sources. I think your political position is clouding your take on world economics.

I could write a list of Bush's US economic screw ball antics but that would only be twisted by the Bush haters so I don't bother. It's said that in mass-media "If it bleeds, it leads".

Ron, just post your sources. That's all I ask.

That's really sad. Did he say "TTFN" when he left?

Bush has no shame, he's too drunk with power to.

I just spent an hour going through my mags and couldn't find the specific article. Then I googled Economic Costs of WTC and had tons of info. The search would have been more taylored as I searched if I continued. I suggest starting with the 1st source presented. I've seen the cost estimates mentioned in many places but I keep the $300B US cost and $500B worldwide costs front and center.

It's obvious that you take China very seriously so I'd like to know what you think of China allowing our Federal Reserve Bank policies to dictate China's monetary policy by attaching their currency to the US dollar? The fact that their banks have no experience in real banking is another story as China's entrepreneurs are creative enough to side-step those state banks.

for entertainment I think we should take advantage of Iraq's booming tourist industry in a little while. Al-Hani Travel Agency seems to be the local best bet. I'd like to do the trip before the big guys, like Club-Med, start cashing in. Meanwhile a 10day tour of attractions in Syria, Egypt, and the Red Sea are about $250us.

Ron, I'm not doing your work for you. Either post credible sources on any of your figures or retract them.

We can can move on from there.

the silence by the board's necons as of late speaks louder than all of their pre-election rhetoric.

and see, i looked forward to the daily show last night and it was a repeat. i bet W checked their schedule and did his speech the day they left for hiatus.http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat2.gif

Lots of noise, but not much light.

Yes, lots of rebuilding going on in Irwreck. So what? We're the ones who knocked everything down. No water in most of Baghdad, electricity is on for 2 hours and off for 4. From an infrastructure standpoint, most people were much better off under Saddam. How many years until that changes?

Yes, ultimately there will be democracy, but that doesn't mean "stable." And it doesn't mean "not fundamentalist" and it doesn't mean "pro West."

The WTC cost impact was over a trillion. But what does that have to do with Iraq? Nothing. It's the lamest excuse ever to throw $300 billion at destabilizing a country in hopes it will restabilize itself.

Notice how the Bush administration held back information on the helicopter shot down *by the Taliban in Afghanistan* until after the speech. I believe Tuesday saw the largest single-day U.S. death toll since "mission accomplished."

Last week Bush administration officials defined "last throes" as being 6 weeks to 12 years. Does that trouble no one else?