Pelican Parts Forums

Pelican Parts Forums (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/)

- Off Topic Discussions (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/)

- - Selfless? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/229670-selfless.html)

Or not....

Part I

Paraphrasing the Administration - better we fight the terrorists over there than in our own country. I have come across this (not sure if its already posted here) - an Iraqi responding. See the 1 July entry (scroll down if needed):

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_riverbendblog_archive.html

Quote:

Bush said:
“The troops here and across the world are fighting a global war on terror. The war reached our shores on September 11, 2001.”

Do people really still believe this? In spite of that fact that no WMD were found in Iraq, in spite of the fact that prior to the war, no American was ever killed in Iraq and now almost 2000 are dead on Iraqi soil? It’s difficult to comprehend that rational people, after all of this, still actually accept the claims of a link between 9/11 and Iraq. Or that they could actually believe Iraq is less of a threat today than it was in 2003.

We did not have Al-Qaeda in Iraq prior to the war. We didn’t know that sort of extremism. We didn’t have beheadings or the abduction of foreigners or religious intolerance. We actually pitied America and Americans when the Twin Towers went down and when news began leaking out about it being Muslim fundamentalists- possibly Arabs- we were outraged.

Now 9/11 is getting old. Now, 100,000+ Iraqi lives and 1700+ American lives later, it’s becoming difficult to summon up the same sort of sympathy as before. How does the death of 3,000 Americans and the fall of two towers somehow justify the horrors in Iraq when not one of the people involved with the attack was Iraqi?

Bush said:
“Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war. … The commander in charge of coalition operations in Iraq, who is also senior commander at this base, General John Vines, put it well the other day. He said, "We either deal with terrorism and this extremism abroad, or we deal with it when it comes to us."

He speaks of ‘abroad’ as if it is a vague desert-land filled with heavily-bearded men and possibly camels. ‘Abroad’ in his speech seems to indicate a land of inferior people- less deserving of peace, prosperity and even life.

Don’t Americans know that this vast wasteland of terror and terrorists otherwise known as ‘Abroad’ was home to the first civilizations and is home now to some of the most sophisticated, educated people in the region?

Don’t Americans realize that ‘abroad’ is a country full of people- men, women and children who are dying hourly? ‘Abroad’ is home for millions of us. It’s the place we were raised and the place we hope to raise our children- your field of war and terror.

The war was brought to us here, and now we have to watch the country disintegrate before our very eyes. We watch as towns are bombed and gunned down and evacuated of their people. We watch as friends and loved ones are detained, or killed or pressured out of the country with fear and intimidation.

Part II

Bush is now (in the face of the irrefutable) acknowledging something must be done about global warming, and that man (especially the US) is at least partly responsible for the warming in question. What does he say to something that a whole lot of other countries will endure fiscal pain to do:

Free version of an LA Times article:

Quote:

Asked in the interview whether climate change is "manmade," Bush replied, "To a certain extent it is, obviously."

"You know, look, there was a debate of Kyoto, and I made the decision — as did a lot of other people in this country, by the way — that the Kyoto treaty didn't suit our needs. In other words, the Kyoto treaty would have wrecked our economy, if I can be blunt."

Bush denied, though, that he was putting U.S. economic interests above the interests of the planet.

"My hope is ... to move beyond the Kyoto debate and to collaborate on new technologies that will enable the United States and other countries to diversify away from fossil fuels so that the air will be cleaner and that we have the economic and national security that comes from less dependence of foreign sources of oil," he said.

"To that end, we're investing in a lot of ... research on hydrogen-powered automobiles. I believe we'll be able to burn coal without emitting any greenhouse gases," he said, also citing his backing for "more nuclear power."

The Kyoto Protocol took effect in February with ratification by 141 countries — including every industrialized nation except Australia and the United States. It aims to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions to roughly 5 percent below 1990 levels by 2012.

He is dreaming if he thinks that half assed plan will work. I'm getting that "voodoo economics" feeling again.

Kyoto is an agreement that allows "developing countries" to pollute with relative immunity. (tell me how that is good, for the world)

America has done more for developing energy, and energy effiency than any other. Yet, some would think that the world should let countries like china spew gases like it were 1939 in Nazi Germany.

Oh, and take a look at magnet-shift and climate change. (man responsibile for global warming:rolleyes: .. .please back that one up)

Al-Qaeda WAS in Iraq prior to the war. No matter how many times lib's chant the cliche to the contrary.

. . .so many twisted words in that bush-bashing diatribe . .. same old, same old. . . .full of logical holes, and flat out lies.

I think an important point, though, is that the first article was written - not by an American liberal - but an Iraqi. We can argue all day long about WMDs and rationale for going to war, but the fact remains that our actions in the Middle East are only fostering more and more hatred for America and its foreign policy. At this point it is becoming more and more irrelevant whether or not we had any justification in starting the war in the first place.

Mike

This statement from one Iraqi represents his point of view only; no more, no less. Is it so difficult for the left to grasp that there are as many diverse points of view being expressed in Iraq as there are in the rest of the world? Please do not try to portray this as representative of all Iraqis' positions on the war. There are at least an equal number that have come out strongly in favor of what we are doing. They don't represent the entire country's point of view either. Does anybody know how the majority of the people feel?

Global warming? Oh, please, Chicken Little, explain to us how the sky is falling?

I don't think it matters what the "majority of the people feel". The majority of the people over there aren't terrorists. Do you think it makes a difference to OBL that we are building schools and getting the water turned back on in Iraq?

Contrary to W's insistence that terrorists "hate us for our freedoms", they really hate our foreign policy and our actions in Iraq, etc., are only fueling their fires right now.

Mike

Quote:

Originally posted by IROC
......but the fact remains that our actions in the Middle East are only fostering more and more hatred for America and its foreign policy. At this point it is becoming more and more irrelevant whether or not we had any justification in starting the war in the first place.
Mike

Yeah - the taiban on the run in Afganistan, the Syrians leaving Lebanon, a glimmer of hope for the Palistinians, the Shia in Iraq getting the vote, the mullahs in Iraq needing to call elections. I am kind of glad they DONT like us...

Quote:

Originally posted by IROC
I don't think it matters what the "majority of the people feel". The majority of the people over there aren't terrorists. Do you think it makes a difference to OBL that we are building schools and getting the water turned back on in Iraq?

Contrary to W's insistence that terrorists "hate us for our freedoms", they really hate our foreign policy and our actions in Iraq, etc., are only fueling their fires right now.

Mike

Yes, it does matter how the majority of the people feel. If all we care about is how the terrorists feel about us, then the terrorists have won.

My point was more along the lines of, does it matter to the *terrorists* what the majority of the people feel? Do you think that they are looking at the activity in Iraq and saying, "you know, we were really wrong about these Americans - they are really great people"?

If our actions over there are truly prove to be the correct action to make America and the world a better place to live, then I'm all for it. I'm just not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel yet.

Mike

Quote:

Originally posted by IROC
....
Contrary to W's insistence that terrorists "hate us for our freedoms", they really hate our foreign policy ....

They certainly do hate the effects of our freedom.

Guys like OBL want CONTROL. Guys like OBL HATE that we allow women to be seen in public, to have power to vote, to make money, lots of money . . .. to set-up and profit from their own porn-site. (he must really hate Paris H.)

'foreign policy":rolleyes: . .. look; a red herring.

OBL tried to sucker US into going after Saudi Araibia. He, and Saddam, have brought nothing but nasty 'foreign policy" to the region.

Quote:

Originally posted by IROC
My point was more along the lines of, does it matter to the *terrorists* what the majority of the people feel? Do you think that they are looking at the activity in Iraq and saying, "you know, we were really wrong about these Americans - they are really great people"?

If our actions over there are truly prove to be the correct action to make America and the world a better place to live, then I'm all for it. I'm just not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel yet.

Mike

O.k.; I missunderstood you, Mike. I agree with you that our actions there are not endearing us to the terrorists. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel anymore either, if I ever really could. I think we are in this for the very long haul. Our Western approach of going in with military mite achieved the immediate goal of removing Saddam, and I still believe that was the right thing to do.

Island911 hit the nail squarely on the head with his assesment. To expand on that just a bit, I believe the only way we could ever hope to appease the hard-line Muslim fanatics and the terrorists they breed would be to totally abandon our western way of life. To fully adopt their narrow, warped view of an Islamic lifestyle. They fully believe in their hearts and souls that anyone not living that lifestyle is an agent of the devil, an infidel, and it is their duty under God's command to eliminate them.

I think us Westerners have a hard time understanding that. How strongly they feel about that; that compromise is not in their vocabulary. That they unflinchingly believe that our elimination is an edict from God himself. How do you deal with that? How do you negotiate with people that feel that way? We are used to living in a world of negotiation and compromise. What happens when there is none on such an important point as our very lifestyle? In the face of this, does anyone really believe they are simply mad at us because of our meddling in their affairs? That they will leave us alone if we leave the region? Hardley. They are in it for the long haul; they have an undying (if missguided) faith to spur them on. Leaving them alone will not lessen their resolve concerning us and our infidel lifestyle. They are "on a mission from God", to quote Elwood.

Well, Jeff, I agree. Unlike many wars in the past (think WWII), the "enemy" is no longer easily identified and doesn't play by the same rules as we do. I don't have the answers, unfortunately. I am just growing more and more concerned that our current actions aren't making the problem any better.

Contrary to the anti-war flavor of some of my posts here, I am actually a big fan of the military and it's judicious use to protect this country (heck, I design weapons for a living). I was one of the biggest proponents for the war in Iraq...about 2 years ago. I am now worried that this isn't the best way to deal with our new enemy. I'm very open-minded to anyone who can assuage my fears...

Mike

Jeff
good summation. How unlike is the comparison of communism to freedom and western culture to Islamic extremism? I think an economic/political approach would have worked and what we will come back to after Iraq. There was an interesting analysis I saw which looked at median incomes across the planet and a correlation to Islamic extremism. If we work to raise the economies, I think the people within their own countries will reject the extremist point of view.

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
If we work to raise the economies, I think the people within their own countries will reject the extremist point of view.

Add education to the mix and I think we have a pretty good recipe for success. It is interesting to note that Islam is the religion of choice in the poorest, least educated regions of the world. I'm aware that that is a pretty broad generalization. Islam is also embraced by some of the most highly educated people on Earth. The very noticable difference is that they don't seem to have the problem with the extremism associated with it in the poorer / less educated areas.

Communism vs. Islamic extremism is kind of a hard comparrison to make. Communism has historically been forced upon unwilling populaces by missguided idealists. With Islamic extremism, we have missguided idealists (so to speak) leading a willing populace that embraced Islam on their own. That in itself makes it far more difficult to deal with. Sometimes I wonder if these extremist Mullahs really believe their own rhetoric, or if they are very cynically using their relatively unneducated followers as a means to their political, rather than religious ends. Kind of like communist leaders - how many bought into the lifestyle they were imposing upon their people? It was all about their power then, and I suspect it may at least partly be today, in another flavor. The difference we must deal with now is that they have buy-in from their people.

Quote:

Originally posted by djmcmath
Global warming? Oh, please, Chicken Little, explain to us how the sky is falling?

Well, sufficent scientists to satisfy me agree that it won't be long before the process is irreversible. The fact that it might not affect me in my lifetime is of little solace.

Island, point taken on the developing countries. Having said that, Bush's plan is still total crap, and I bet he still wouldn't sign up to Kyoto if the developing countries were included in some way.