BMW M3 not fit for track??

[SLO-BOB]

I was reading this month's Roundel and found somthing I never would have expected. A guy wrote in to Mike Miller (I think that's his name) in the tech section about race car advice. He had an E36 M3 that parted company with it's rear suspension at 150k-common flaw I'm told. He also has an E46 M3 that is "too expensive" to put on the track. He wanted to know what kind of BMW to buy to race. The tech response? Buy a HONDA ACCORD! He was serious! Miller states that since the E30 cars, BMW has focused on luxury and not racing. He further opined that the E36 and E46 M3s are not structurally up to the rigors of racing-they are more about luxury. I couldn't believe what I was reading. Apparently structural failure is part of the new BMW heritage.

Boy am I glad I switched to Porsche!

[VaSteve]

I have heard about the first gen E46's having suspension problems - I believe it's fixed now. Isn't Roundel a club magazine like Panorama? That is probably one man's opinion and not BMW's. Certainly we know nothing of that here

[campbellcj]

How soon people forget that the PTG E36 M3's repeatedly trounced Porsche for several years straight. I got to meet Tom Milner, Bill Auberlin and Boris Said around that time at a BMW event. I had a 97 M3 2-door at that time, as well as an early 911.

One of Tom's favorite sayings is/was "Porsches are just VW's with lockwashers", which I thought was pretty funny (hey, as a 914 owner I am comfortable with the family lineage).

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by campbellcj
How soon people forget that the PTG E36 M3's repeatedly trounced Porsche for several years straight.

Actually it was that very thought that made me wonder wtf is going on over there. I follow racing and really admire Auberlain, Said, and Stuck. However, one must factor in the large influx of cash and 1-2 season cars when talking about that level of motorsports. The goals of those people are different than the goals of some guy that wants to go racing.

I've had BMWs for 20+ years and I found this info as bad news. Especially since I want to build a club racer and was considering an E36 M3. I would do a 911 but I barely fit the way it is. Add a helmet and no way. Maybe an E30.

Re: Roundel and Mike Miller. I don't believe Roundel is exempt from the a$$ kissery that is prevalent in automotive journalism. However, Mike Miller has proven himself a knowledgeable and objective BMW authority and enthusiast who writes tech-talk each month. Of all the people who write for the Roundel, it's his opinion I would trust most. I'm sure he's catching hell for his advice right about now.

[wludavid]

The e36 was the first car they designed using CAD techniques. As such, they cut the strength of some components (most notable the rear floor where the subframe attaches) a little close. Floor failure isn't common per se, but it happens more often than it should a bmw; ie, before the first engine dies.

Mike Miller is a old school enthusiast - he loves e30s, HATES automatic transmissions, and it's public knowledge that he considers the e36 the worst car BMW has made.

That said, the gist of the response was that there doesn't seem to be a point to buying a newer BMW as a purely track car, because you'd be wasting so much money removing luxury items and beefing up the car, not to mention spending lots on consumables. I actually wrote to him about this so I'll post his own words:

Well, I knew I'd get flamed for that, but I've got to call 'em like I see 'em. The occasional driving school is one thing, but if you're going to have a new car that is pretty much dedicated to race track work, I can't see why anyone would want such a car to be as big, heavy, complicated, and expensive as a new BMW. BMW makes great road cars, perhaps the best for serious drivers. But I think their days as the best dual duty street/track car are over. And unless you're just a big rich guy who doesn't care, who is going to risk a $50,000+ M3 at the racetrack? Drive that car on the street, and get yourself an E30 325e sedan and tune it for the track -- that's what I say.

[widebody911]

Myself, I'd love to get my hands on an E36 M3 Lightweight http://www.bmwworld.com/models/m3_ltw.htm

[Z-man]

There is a recent Grassroots Motorsports magazine that did a TRACK comparison amngst the M3's - E30, E36, E46. While the E46 has more power and suspension, they liked the chassis balance of the E30 and E36. Quite a different perspective.

BTW: The Turner (?) M3 BMW's are doing quite well in the Speed World Challenge series, and there are quite a few Bimmer's running in ALMS as well.

And the PTG's BMW is doing well in GT class in Grand Am:


My $0.42,
-Z.

[kaisen]

I'm not sure if it is exactly the same, but the rear suspension in my 750iL almost 'separated' from the car because the rear subframe bushings (big rubber hockey pucks) disintegrated allowing the entire rear subframe to 'rock' (deflected 3-4 inches!!) under hard braking. That was only ONE of the $$$ failures at around 60K miles.

I've owned several BMW's from 2002 to 3.0CSi to 330iC to 535is to 750 and I can say I WOULD NOT own another.

My 1988 535is may have been the exception. That was a great car except for the $3800 transmission failure at 120K miles.

Just MY $.02

E

[kaisen]

My transmission failure was the Getrag 5 speed manual, not the ZF automatic.

Anyone who would like a long list of significant failures in my BMWs just has to ask.

Another example in the 750:
The passenger's power seat recliner decided to 'twist' one side as it reclined. There are two power seat recline motors - one for each side L/R. They are driven remotely by nylon sheathed cables (much like old speedo cables). Trouble is, they SHRINK over time. One of my cables shrunk enough to pull out of the female drive end. There were eleven such cables in EACH seat. Each cable was $60-100 retail, plus labor at $100/hr. The BMW dealer suggested that they all be replaced since it was common and the others would surely fail soon after. The estimate was $2600.

I can keep going if anyone is interested.

I understand that anyone can make a bad car (just ask an early Boxster owner). My experience with BMWs is large enough and bad enough for me to stay away. I've owned lots of other marques that were never as bad.

E

[wludavid]

Originally posted by kaisen
My 1988 535is may have been the exception. That was a great car except for the $3800 transmission failure at 120K miles.

I have never heard of another manual tranny failure with so few miles.

Personally, I will never own a 7. For one, I don't see the point. The 5 is big enough - unless you are being chauffered around in the back seat, and they always have way too many gadgets and electrical stuff that fails. Not just gremlins, which I can halfway accept, but failing electric motors everywhere in hard-to-reach places like seats.

Maybe I'm just a wishful thinker. I just bought a '97 528i that I so far love, but I wonder if I'll feel the same way in 3-4 years when all the "little" things that break cost 4 figures to fix.

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
(The one reliability exception was definately was the mid-80s automatic transmissions. That definately was a problem. Went through a few of those. Although they weren't $3800 to fix. Fortunately, that problem only seemed to affect some of the 85 and 86 model year cars).

Don't forget the GM automatics they used for the m50 2.5 liter engine in the 3's and 5's from 91 through 95. If there's one that hasn't failed (or slips so badly it might as well be broken) I'd be surprised. Utter pieces of crap, they were.