divorced dads: does it work?

[nostatic]

For those of you that are divorced dads, I'm just trying to get some perspective on how it "works." Not necessarily the actual mechanics/logistics (although data points are always appreciated), but just a feel for whether or not it is sane/reasonable to expect that a divorced dad can remain tightly integrated in the life/raising of the kid. There always seems to be a question of how much do you suck up "for the sake of the kid", and I've been through a lot of that internal/external discussion but I've had a tough time finding dads who are separated but still engaged. I know a few "one or two weekend a month and the occasional dinner" types, but I'm not willing to go there. At this point we have a fairly amicable setup and I do 3 nights a week. Of course there is the issue of what happens if one or the other wants/needs to move, but...

So anyone been there, done that?

[IROC]

BTDT. My ex-wife and I have what is called "joint legal and physical custody". In other words, there really are no court-appointed rules for visitation, etc. In some ways this flexibilty is great - in other ways it is a curse. Our divorce decree does not allow either of us to move outside the county without relinquishing custody, basically.

One thing I have learned over the years (been divorced for about 9 years now) is that kids are alot smarter than adults give them credit for. They understand alot of what is going on and will *know* in the end whether they have been treated fairly or whether one parent has tried to "suck up".

My advice - keep being the same parent you've always been. Don't change anything. Be fair, be honest and be truthful and in the end your relationship with your kid(s) will be fine.

My son (from the previous marriage) actually prefers to stay with me most of the time now despite his mother's attempts to "take him away" in subtle ways.

Try as hard as you can to maintain the "amicable" part. It's tough...oh so tough...but maintaining the kind of time you have with your kid(s) is worth it.

Mike

[nostatic]

Its funny because my son has had a tough time in school, and has had some behavior issues. I also was pretty much a de facto single parent for most of his first 7 years as my ex was working ridiculous hours and I never put my foot down about it. Anyway, I've been moved out for 9 months now, and this last year in school was MUCH better wrt his behavior. While some of it was having a great teacher and getting older and more mature, I think another aspect is that while there was some chaos from there being two homes, each of them was fairly sane and supportive...so in the overall scheme less tension, etc.

[id10t]

My older brother was shared custody between my dad and his (my brother's) mother. It was common for him to want to go to whichever house he wasn't at, either to escape rules or escape punishment, getting somewhat worse as he got older.

[Crowbob]

Nostatic,

Whether it works or not is up to you. IROC Mike is correct. Because your parenting time will most likely be limited, you will have to make the most of it. Kids are way smarter about this than anyone thinks. First, you must be consistent. If you say you'll be there...be there-on time! Do not be a Disney Land Dad. That is, don't feel like you have to entertain the kid(s) all the time. Do not speak ill of mom-ever. They (the kids) already know her problems and quirks and your problems and quirks. Speaking ill of their mother says more about you than her, even if it's the truth-they already know it! Teach by example; live your life they way you would want them to live theirs. Always remember; where they are is not up to them or up to you or up to mother. It is up to the judge. If mom screws up or the kids want to be somewhere other than with you during your parenting time, you say; "Son, let's ask the judge what to do about this. Usually, it gets resolved. My x went to jail for repeated violations of the parenting time provisions of our order. The kids blamed me. I reminded them (in an age appropriate way, of course) that I do not have the authority, the means or the desire to put mom in jail. But, the judge does and that's what he did. Over time, the truth will out. My kids were 2 and 6 when the big D hit. At ages 21-girl, 25-boy we all met in Vegas for my youngest's 21st b-day (she lived there at the time). It was the greatest day of my life...They both, as adults, thanked me for being consistent, honest and determined to stay in their lives. Many of their friends had two parents growing up but are very screwed up because they ended up hating both parents for whatever reasons.

Either get used to the idea that dad's are second class parents, or fight the system. Here in Michigan, we organized and petitioned to change the Child Custody Act state-wide. It took 10 years! Locally, the Friend of the Court "retired" after I petitioned the State Court Administrative Office and sued him for violating my due proceess and his failure to enforce the orders of the court regarding the parenting time provisions.

Good luck. "The truth will out."

Jim

[CRH911S]

IROC's excellent advice:

My advice - keep being the same parent you've always been. Don't change anything. Be fair, be honest and be truthful and in the end your relationship with your kid(s) will be fine.

On the other hand this is exactly what you want to avoid- the JIMCRY method:

It is up to the judge. If mom screws up or the kids want to be somewhere other than with you during your parenting time, you say; "Son, let's ask the judge what to do about this. Usually, it gets resolved. My x went to jail for repeated violations of the parenting time provisions of our order. The kids blamed me. I reminded them (in an age appropriate way, of course) that I do not have the authority, the means or the desire to put mom in jail. But, the judge does and that's what he did.

This is what happens when two irresponsible parents can't resolve their differences and no amount of explanation can mend the damage of something like this. Bottom line, dad sent mom to jail. That's how the kids see it.

Good luck, you're on the right track.

[Crowbob]

Chris,

Thanks for your response. However, you presume that it takes two irresponsible parents to have unresolved conflicts. In reality it takes only one irresponsible parent, which is precisely why there are judges, as biased as thay may be. You may feel it is fine to teach your children that irresponsibility gets you what you want. I don't. You may also feel appeasement is always the preferable route. It is not. There were no additional violations of parenting time after the incarceration. And finally, sir, I do not have the aurthorty, means or desire to put anyone in jail and never had, as far as I know. Or should I say, to you, pariticularly; "Child, I can't put anybody in jail, I don't have a jail, or even the keys to a jail and why would I put your mom in jail, she loves you. Whose gonna feed you when your at mom's if she's in jail? The judge did what he thought was right."

I resent every worrd of your response. Which by the way, makes no sense. You agree then disagree: Be fair, be honest and be truthful but let mom destroy a parental bond? Are you a judge, lawyer, or FOC caseworker by any chance? They have a tendancy to blame the parties for their own incompetence. I do not expect an apology.

Jim

[IROC]

Jim brought up another excellent point, though. Never speak ill of the ex in the presence of the kids. It is important for them to understand what happened, though. My ex ran off with a guy she worked with and as a result of me not bad mouthing her in front of my son, he grew up never really understanding what happened (obviously she never wanted him to know the truth of her infidelity). He was six when we divorced and merely though that mommy didn't want to live with daddy any more. This caused him some mental anguish over the years as when he finally found out the truth, alot of his confusion dissappeared.

Unfortunately, I beleive that kids are the ones that suffer the most in a divorce. Do the best you can to look for them in this difficult time.

Mike

[lendaddy]

Don't get upset when he says "Thanks weekend Dad!"









Sorry, I rib my brother with that one...tasteless I know, but you have to find humor or you'll go nuts.

[livi]

Nostatic,

This is a somewhat unexpected yet thoughtful thread among us mostly male petrol heads. Especially from the Land of Dr Phil !

However, being divorced - 4 kids, for six years now I can fully appreciate your concern. I am a pediatrician and my ex is a nurse in a pediatric clinic. That didn´t help...

I will not write a boOK on the subject, plenty of great input already. In my humble experience there is however ONE single factor that will make all the difference to the children's well being. That is perhaps also the most difficult part.

I am talking about the need for the kids to feel that the two people in the world they love most and are utterly dependent on, are friends and working together for the well being of their children. If the children that readily take on the blame for bad things happening in the family also have to split their loyalty between the parents, no matter how good a father you try to be they will feel unhappy. They need to know everything is OK within the "old" family. If they do, they can take pretty much anything and still feel secure.

Just my 2 Swedish crowns..

[nostatic]

Thanks for the input so far. I never speak ill of my ex around my son, and always try to be positive. I'm on time, and show up when/where I'm supposed to. I try to make sure that my ex and I email each other with dates/times since we seem to have different memories when it comes to phone conversations (gee, maybe that was part of the original problem...).

To date it has been pretty civil and lines of communication have been open, although strained from time to time. We also try to keep standard rules across both households so there is consistency. I think we're doing most things "right" so far, but it is a constantly changing landscape. The big issue I fear will come when she wants to move. She already asked me if I was going to give her a hard time (ie court) if she wanted to move and take him with her. I said no, but that we would have to work it out. The present plan is no moves until he is done at his current elementary school. Plus I'm paying child support even though the "formula" says she owes me money, and she's staying in the house.

I guess it has just been nagging me somewhat...the thought of them moving and me not seeing him every other day. And the fact that I "get" him in ways that his mom, or any other step dad never will (one advantage to spending every night and weekend with him for the first 7 years of his life). That along with living in a crappy apartment vs. the nice house, etc makes for a somewhat compelling argument to suck it up and move back. But I don't know that she wants me to (or that I want to), and things would have to radically change from where they were before, and I don't know if that is possible either. Just no easy/clear way to move forward. It becomes a bit easier if I have some hope that it *is* possible to help him grow up even if I'm not there every day.

[livi]

I can really feel your pain between the lines, Nostatic. I have lived that agony the last years.

The problem for most parents in this situation is that its really hard to keep focus on whats best for the children. Very often I am afraid the motives for a certain view or action comes from the need of the parent, not the child, even though its argued to be in the best interest of the child.

[gassy]

My ex and I live about a mile apart. The kids stay at my house 3-4 nights a week average. We have in our decree that we have to live within 10 miles of the other. Even though I see my children more than most divorced dads, I still call them a lot and send them letters and stuff. I go to as many soccer and baseball games and school functions that I can, even if my ex is there. Have hope. It's possible.

[CRH911S]

livi, this is excellent:

I am talking about the need for the kids to feel that the two people in the world they love most and are utterly dependent on, are friends and working together for the well being of their children.

Maybe I missed it nostatic, but why does she have physical custody? Didn't the possibility of a move ever occur to you during the custody hearing? I have read many of your posts and replies and you don't seem like the type of person that would let something like this slip past.

JIMCRY. if I offended you I apologize. I disagree with getting the children involved under any circumstances in any aspect. I am 22 years divorced with physical custody in a joint custody agreement. I bit the bullet and gave up my share of the house, which I built by hand, and absorbed all marital debt. I was focused on raising our son and I wanted my ex to be too. Not writing a check every month is the way to go.

[todwic]

Not a parent, but parents D'ed when I was 10. Parents fought bitterly over me and several issues that involved me. When I grew older I realized the why's and what's of a lot of court battles. Saw my dad go to jail cuz he wanted me to go fishing on a monday (no school) morning. Also saw the interior of mom's car pretty well ruined because dad made me commute with my dog when I was at moms. Just a couple of examples of what not to do.

You both decided to bring child(ren) into this world, and you both need to work together to raise a well adjusted child. There are a lot of pitfalls for kids to get lost into (drugs, gangs, bad grades, lots of bad choices out there just waiting for an opertunity). You seem to be a bright guy, I'll assume your ex isn't an idiot, too. When there's a punishment in one household, it should be so in the other. Even tho you couldn't make your marriage work out, for whatever reason, it really does take two parents to raise your offspring. Best advice I can give: care and be involved. Don't let discipline suffer. She totally has to hold up her end, also. Your kid's future is at stake.

[nostatic]

we are still separated, and have joint physical custody...and that is the plan in the divorce "parenting plan." But the issue of moving has already come up. I will not accept anything other than joint physical custody...

We actually are working fairly well together on this...I'm just trying to get some perspective and have my eyes as wide open as possible.

[todwic]

Originally posted by procon

Best if you can work it out without the courts, Fathers usually don't stand a chance.

True story, for the most part. Tho if yer in the "Gay Bay" area, you prolly stand more of a chance than my dad did.

[Wrecked944]

Wow, you have asked some serious questions. Might help if more adult children of divorced families chime in with the long term side effects profile. All I can say is that my parents divorced when I was 15. And based on that, I have to suggest you never underestimate the damage divorce does to kids. It unleashes forces that mere mortals have no control over. I know parents never want to hear that but it is undeniable. My parents did the very best they could which, in the end, was utterly pathetic. Now I'm 39 and haven't seen either one in over ten years. AFAIK they don't even know where I live - which is how I want it. My life improved ten-fold when I cut them out of it. I have friends tell me they actually want to see their relatives during holidays and such. And it sounds like they are speaking swahili to my ears.

Not trying to be a downer. From all of your posts, nostatic, you seem like a sincere and genuinely good guy. I'm just providing a data point and recommending extreme caution. The place you're entering is a mine field and every mine blows up your kids.