I think both sides are closed minded.

Atheists like to fancy themselves as intellectuals and the drug is addictive. The more they convince themselves of this the less fear they allow into their minds.

Thumpers tend to convince themselves as there is no alternative. The state of "mental ease" afforded by faith vanishes if they open the window of doubt.


Admitting you don't know and don't have faith either way is a scary place to live.....so few reside here:)

You're right. I have constructed a "view" of the world around me based on logic that is reinforced by the sciences. I ascribe to logical explanations for natural events in lieu of supernatural explanations. Understanding the world around me by learning about it is how "fear" is removed from my mind. I, personally, don't need a deity to remove the fear.

So far it has not failed me. I have considered that I may be wrong, and in fact I have changed my thinking as I learn. For instance, I used to not believe the theory of evolution was true. Learning about the theory changed my thinking.

Unfortunately many people on both sides of the belief fence tend to be adversarial and confrontational. There's really no need in that.

Mike

I totally understand, I have been on both sides of this. There is a desire for mental peace that can only be reached a couple different ways.....pick your poison:)

Funny, but I've argued with many a born again on this very topic. The party line I've been told is no baptism, you're going to hell.

Never. For Christians, being"saved or born again" is all that matters. If you weren't baptized in the time span from being "saved or born again" until you die, you do not go to hell.

Baptism, confirmation, are just additional means/mileposts of sanctification in the life of a Christian

Yet once you arrive and take up residence, it's amazingly comfortable.

...and they will never concede that it's inherently a contradictory position.

But hey, that's their belief and they're welcome to it.

Never met any born again Christian who believed baptism was a requirement for salvation. Can you cite documentation?

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

Here is enough proof for your grandfather.

sorry, didn't tape the conversation.

I found some support for that belief

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm#1247

it is the Catholic doctrine that baptism is required.

I do not believe it is a requirement for a child to get baptised.

When one gets older it is her/his choice whether to accept God/Jesus Christ as his personal savior then get baptised.

like ice said, I didn't record the conversations. But more than one conversation has gone that way. I remember asking about a Chinese baby born in a village with Taoist parents...if it died soon after birth would it go to hell. The answer was "if he hadn't been baptised in christ, the baby would go to hell."

Maybe I just had stupid born-agains knocking on my door?

http://www.bible.ca/auto-baptism.htm

Spot on.

I have no interest in organized religion, but I also don't have any interest in using logic to attack the existance of god.

Although I must say, I find people of faith a much scarier lot than the atheists. Faith is a belief, not a logical conclusion, and as such one can justify any act. Acts of kindness, acts of terrorism.....anything can be justified by waving the banner of faith.

I am quite content admitting that I don't know. I have some theories, but as I have no evidence, I can only put together a way of living that I think is best for myself and those around me.

Its a murky position, on that enrages both Christians and Atheisists alike, so I must have right. :D

This is a bit of a put one, since I was raised in a largely Christian environment, so my world view is deeply rooted in Chrisitian thought.......

"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism."

This is the Catholic doctrine.


Some extreme fundamentalists may indeed believe that unbaptized go to hell.

I have learned something today about baptism.

All this religious/atheist crap is missing the crux of the issue..

Lets say it's the day of the baptism.

• Will it mean anything to your son that day? No
• Will it be of any determent to you that day? No.
• Will it matter to the old man you regard so highly and care for so deeply? Yes.

The answer is obvious if you think about it in the right context.

I grew up in a fairly strict religious environment (the Western MI Christian Reformed kind - Lendaddy would know what I mean). I might not have any interest in religion now as an adult, but I do think it taught me some values/morals and that I turned out ok.

As far as the baptism thing, I came away from it all with the idea that it was really more for the parents and their commitment to how they would raise the child.

When the child "comes of age" – whether that be when they are 15, 30 or 100, it doesn’t matter, and is able to make their own decision on whether they would dedicate their life to Christ, they would go through "Confirmation" and become a "real" member of the church - they would be able to take communion at this time - not before.

If you really don’t care/believe, why not let the Grandfather take the kid to church to be baptized? Everyone’s happy.

With all the So. Cal folks on this board, I’m surprised we haven’t heard from any SDA’s, they are usually pretty vocal about stuff like this.

My own brother (born again - ofcourse) stands by these comments also. He is way up in the hierachy of the major born again christian organisation in Australia. They love him. he has millions of $.

Doesn't fit with the thief on the cross who clearly was not baptized, and an adult (had plenty of time to have made a decision to be baptized before he ended up on the cross). "And he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.' And He said unto him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.'" Luke 23:42,43 RSV.

Baptism is symbolic of rebirth into Christianity in my understanding. The physical act is not necessary. The Catholic view is somewhat different, hence they believe in baptism at birth.

OK - can a born again christian "in the know" please chime in and explain why then we need to be "baptized in the holy spirit"?

(The ceremony where there is "speaking in tongues", "laying on of hands" and "slaying in the holy spirit" - commonly known as being pushed over backwards).

I think it's like rule number one of Fight Club though so appreciate if you guys are a little shy to speak publicly about this sort of level of hocus pocus.....