Private Healthcare in Canada

legion · 08-08-2005, 09:56 AM

I didn't realize that private healthcare was outright illegal in Canada.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/ocanadarx

Wow, this guy doesn't like to visit reality much:

Quote:

Allowing people to buy private health insurance violates fundamental rights, McBane says, because not everyone will be able to afford it.

Dennis Kalma · Dennis Kalma's Garage

Aaahhh....our secret is out....I think the benign neglect that the US applies to Canada (deservedly so, no criticism implied of US policy or attitudes in that regard) would be upset if you all found out that there is a socialist banana republic north of the border. Freedom of speech is curtailed (try holding an anti-abortion poster near an abortion clinic....quick way to do jail time, or try refusing to print pro-homosexual material if you are a printing house....you will be fined), the government is a regularly elected dictatorship....and yes.....it is illegal to offer preferential medical treatment for payment....so we just go to the US to get it when we need it.

And for you Canadians who are reading, yes, I am renouncing my Canadian citizenship and have recovered my Dutch citizenship, largely in protest over how poorly our government treated the US during events of September 11, 2001.

Dennis

Dottore · 08-08-2005, 09:40 PM

....that explains the signature line under your name!

Let's see if I got this right: your renouncing your Canadian citizenship in favour of Dutch citizenship because Canadians are too liberal?

You may be in for a rude suprise when you get to Amsterdam.

Dennis Kalma · Dennis Kalma's Garage

Nope, nothing to do with liberal-ness.....basically I find Canada to be essentially intellectually dishonest when it comes to dealing with issues.....there is much in the Dutch agenda that I do not agree with, but at least the dialogue is one that is straightforward, honest and does not become personal when disagreement arises.

Also, I have lived there, I am obviously of Dutch descent and I know what I am getting into....

notfarnow · 12:11 PM

As for the healthcare issue, yes it's true. However, we are seeing more Canadians travel abroad for some treatments due to long wait lists.

Basically, the supreme court ruled that citizens have a right to pursue private health care if the gov't wait lists are too long and jeopordize a patient's health. That was my understanding of the judgement, anyway.

As a side note, a couple weeks ago I took a nasty bonk to the head, and was out cold for a good 30 minutes. When I came to, I felt fine but my wife called "telecare", a FREE 24/hr medical helpline. Based on how long I'd been out, and some of my symptoms, they said I need to go to the hospital. They offered to send a FREE ambulance. We drove in instead, and I was checked out by a doctor within 30 minutes. They made me spend the night, waking me every hour, and did an CT scan. Went home in the morning, and the emergency doctor called me later that day to see if I should come in for a follow-up.
Total cost: $0

The cool thing is, the same level of service is available to anyone who shows up. No insurance, no HMO, no user fee. Whether you are a judge or a juggler, you get the same treatment.

Not that the system is perfect, in fact it's in great jeopardy. It's abused by people who see it as "free", and it's horribly under-funded. It's also under a lot of pressure who want to open the doors to private clinics and HMO's.

Purrybonker · 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Kalma

And for you Canadians who are reading, yes, I am renouncing my Canadian citizenship and have recovered my Dutch citizenship, largely in protest over how poorly our government treated the US during events of September 11, 2001.

Dennis

I have no idea what you are on about in terms of your examples of Canadian freedoms. All are bogus afaic. But let's keep on topic.

Canadians generally closely guard the universal access to medical care as much as Americans guard the principles passed down by their founding fathers. Private health insurance on services covered by the public health system is viewed as the same as allowing private rather than public payment for such services.

So the root issue is not health insurance - it's who pays for those services that are provided by the public system that may be in conflict with the principles of universal/equal access.

Wealthier Canadians are starting to take exception to the "no private healthcare" principal because they feel that they should be able to take their greater wealth and apply it to better health. They argue that none suffer if they pay for incremental healthcare.

Advocates of the public provided system argue that the provision of private services will always compromise public services to some extent.

Most medical funding/insurance systems in the world more closely mirror the Canadian model - almost none mirror the US model, BTW.

notfarnow · 08-09-2005, 12:37 PM

I read somewhere that despite being underfuned and "in crisis", the canadian system is less expensive per patient / per case. It would be interesting to know if that's true.

legion · 08-09-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notfarnow
I read somewhere that despite being underfuned and "in crisis", the canadian system is less expensive per patient / per case. It would be interesting to know if that's true.

Probably. 100% of the cost of developing drugs is expensed to the U.S. market. The rest of the world only pays the cost to manufacture the drug (we pay the cost to develop it + the cost to manufacture). So, in a way, we in the U.S. are subsidizing healthcare in the rest of the world. How nice of us!

I'm not saying that this is the only reason healthcare is cheaper in Canada, but I'm sure it contributes.

Serge914 · Serge914's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by legion

100% of the cost of developing drugs is expensed to the U.S. market.

With all the research laboratory we have around here, that would surprise me. In fact the last aids vaccin was developped in Montreal.

I can see a few others reasons:

- Drugs company are not allowed to do publicity in Canada.

- Insurances company are not making millions of dollars insuring peoples health.

Dennis Kalma · Dennis Kalma's Garage

No issue with the single payer system as used in Canada, I think it makes the most sense, the issue I have is that there is no means to make the system more efficient, one vehicle being the addition of some market signals to optimize and second, if I have the money and want my hip replaced RIGHT NOW...why shouldn't I be allowed to use my own personal resources to get something which I want?

If it were up to me, I would use a single payer system with private provisioning of services being done in competition with a public sector provision....both would have to meet the same standards, both must be universal (cannot turn anyone away) and so forth....why not?

Dixie · Dixie's Garage

Cost less in money, yes. But cost less in time to gain access? Well....

Hugh R · 08-13-2005, 03:37 PM

I was born in the US, but my parents were both Canadians and I have a "certificate of live birth abroad" and in theory I have duo citizenship. I'm going to go down to the Canadian embassy and see if I can get a Canadian passport. Good for traveling to those muslim countries, I may be going to Morocco and Tangier in November for a film we're working on about 9/11. Good place for that huh? no controvery there on that subject. In addition, I'm wondering if I'll be eligible for Canadian healthcare? Should come in handy if/when I retire in about 15 years.

Purrybonker · 08-14-2005, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Kalma
... if I have the money and want my hip replaced RIGHT NOW...why shouldn't I be allowed to use my own personal resources to get something which I want?

But that's kinda (read: exactly) the point of "universal" healthcare, isn't it? Canadians have decided that they view healthcare as being so fundamental that everyone should have equal access to it. As soon as you allow someone to buy "immediate service", then healthcare access is no longer equal is it?

It's like the example of a 90 day waiting list for a non-urgent MRI, yet in Calgary you can pony up 3 or 4 grand tomorrow for a private MRI with no doctor referral or medical justification other than "you want one". Clearly, your decision to buy an MRI means that an MRI machine is quite likely being used "frivilously" and absolutely directs resources away from the areas of greatest need.

There are lots of places in the world where you can buy private healthcare. As with a few other topics - Canadians prefers to adopt a different posture on this one. Canadians want to live in a place where access to healthcare is as fundamental as any other right or freedom. You will never hear stories about Canadians going broke or dieing or being unable to thrive because of a lack of money to cover medically necessary services.

lendaddy · 08-14-2005, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Purrybonker
But that's kinda (read: exactly) the point of "universal" healthcare, isn't it? Canadians have decided that they view healthcare as being so fundamental that everyone should have equal access to it. As soon as you allow someone to buy "immediate service", then healthcare access is no longer equal is it?

It's like the example of a 90 day waiting list for a non-urgent MRI, yet in Calgary you can pony up 3 or 4 grand tomorrow for a private MRI with no doctor referral or medical justification other than "you want one". Clearly, your decision to buy an MRI means that an MRI machine is quite likely being used "frivilously" and absolutely directs resources away from the areas of greatest need.

There are lots of places in the world where you can buy private healthcare. As with a few other topics - Canadians prefers to adopt a different posture on this one. Canadians want to live in a place where access to healthcare is as fundamental as any other right or freedom. You will never hear stories about Canadians going broke or dieing or being unable to thrive because of a lack of money to cover medically necessary services.

What a load, hey Purry:

Say "God forbid" you come down with some life threatening illness. The Canadian system wait is 6 months and decreases your survival chances by 60%. You know a doctor in the States that will trade your Porsche for the surgury tomorrow, hence giving you an 80% chance of survival vs 32% in the Canadian system. A couple questions:

Would you do it or wait?

How is anyone in line for this procedure in Canada harmed by your actions? In fact the line is one shorter.

Unbelievable and classic at the same time, this liberal theory would have had EVERYONE go down on the Titanic as some living would not be equal/fair.

And finally, why don't we have waiting periods in the US? Because there is profit to be made, so services are made available. Simple as that...when you want something done, capitalism will get it done and be smoking a cigarette on the couch before socialism even gets a semi.

The idea that our poor are dying enmasse is bunk. We do supply insurance to our poor and it's pretty good too. You just never hear about it, gee wonder why.

Dave L · 08-14-2005, 07:33 AM

The US is the only developed nation not offering universal health care. The fact that the US doesnt should be an embarasement.

lendaddy · 08-14-2005, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave L
The US is the only developed nation not offering universal health care. The fact that the US doesnt should be an embarasement.

\

You have no idea what you're talking about. Every friggen citizen in your country would prefer to be treated in the United States, this is an embarassment IMHO.

Moses · 08-14-2005, 08:16 AM

The healthcare in the US still remains the worlds benchmark. The way we pay for it is a tangled mess.

Remember that in the US, it is illegal to deny anyone treatment based on ability to pay. Also, there is an enormous safety net for the poor. Medicaid/MediCal is truly amazing in the scope of care provided. An unemployed, uninsured MediCal patient will get a free hip replacement lots faster here than anywhere else in the world. Why? Because even though the system is messed up, doctors and hospitals are still incentivised to provide care.

Lastly, the absurdity of the Canadian health policy is offensive to most of us because we value freedom. Don't tell me what I can buy and what I can't. Purry's argument about MRI scans is erroneous. It is simply not the case that rich Canadians would over use a valuable MRI machine doing frivolous scans. What happens is a private company buys an MRI scanner and sells it's service to privately funded patients. No impact on the Canadian goverment at all. They can have as many MRI machines as they would like to purchase.

Dottore · 08-14-2005, 08:18 AM

lendaddy that is a load of crap.

Access to healthcare in Canada is universal. You get sick - you get treated. It is that simple.

Yes there can be waits for elective procedures - but these are not outrageous. My old mum has had both hips and both knees replaced in Canada for nothing more than a monthly premium of C$38 - and is playing golf again. She had to wait a couple of months for these operations - but so what. This is not life threatening stuff.

People in Canada at all income levels enjoy open access to the health-care system. This makes for a quality of life you cannot even begin to dream about in the US.

Now the system is not perfect - I will grant you this. But having lived all over the US and Canada I can tell you where the average person feels better looked after - and that is here.

lendaddy · 08-14-2005, 08:53 AM

In America....you get sick, you get treated. You generally get treated much sooner here and with newer and better equipment/facilities. We don't know what a "waiting list is", perhaps you can explain it, and why it's not a problem worth discussing?

lendaddy · 08-14-2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moses
What happens is a private company buys an MRI scanner and sells it's service to privately funded patients. No impact on the Canadian goverment at all. They can have as many MRI machines as they would like to purchase.

Exactly! The idea that these resources are limited and thus must be regulated is lunacy. Your system is inherently bound by how many it can "afford" which creates a false shortage. Here, when we want more, we get more. We pay for it more directly, your costs are hidden.