The Greatest Entitlement Program Ever
 

Quick background: libertarian, fiscally conservative, socially liberal, education is the silver bullet, I like guns, the death penalty (for murder and rape), would rather see a culture of adoption than one of abortion, government should stay out of our personal lives, but a safety net is important, blah, blah, blah.

That said, I am really against the welfare system, mainly because it propagates cycles (poverty, need, expectation, abuse) rather than breaks them. The end game is that when you don't work for something, when it's just given to you, you'll never appreciate it, you'll never understand achievement, you'll never learn anything and be able to take those skills to modify them to tackle new challenges. Entitlement programs are poorly designed to make you FEEL like you are one thing, but don't give you the tools to actually BE that thing.

So I've been thinking about the Democratization of Iraq, and quite honestly, I think it very well could be the great entitlement program of them all.

The U.S. Military is doing ALL the heavy lifting, taking 90% of the risks, suffering a vast majority of the deaths, and the MIC is doing all the rebuilding. In short, Americans are dying so Iraqi's can have a better life. A noble cause to be sure, and one of the reasons I've been against the war from the beginning, but I don't think Iraqi's are learning the true meaning of owning their country. They simply can't.

Iraq is sort of like democracy with U.S. training wheels. All the appearances of riding a bike are there, but you are limited, safe, constrained, slow, clumsy. Until you take them off and risk a skinned knee will you really know the freedom of pedaling ecstatically, twisting and turning down the road in front of you.

Re: The Greatest Entitlement Program Ever
 

Blah, blah, blah? Are you kidding? Your little platform makes more sense to me than anything I've heard out of Washington in my adult life. And yes, Iraq is a disaster from every angle, economic, political, and moral.

In the old old days, we would have just popped off Saddem and let the hand ride. When that lost favor we would fund the resistance but with the Iran Contra thing that sort of lost its appeal. Now, what the heck - lets just invade the freak'n country and "manage" it until it can sustain itself. When has this ever worked?

I really don't know what to do with Iraq. I would much rather woop up on some South American country or some banana republic than dealing with the middlebeast.

To be honest with you, people who are oppressed all their lives, man, it's an opportunity to get back at society," he said.

A man walked down Canal Street with a pallet of food on his head. His wife, who refused to give her name, insisted they weren't stealing from the nearby Winn-Dixie supermarket. "It's about survival right now," she said as she held a plastic bag full of purloined items. "We got to feed our children. I've got eight grandchildren to feed."

This is the thinking of people who somehow justify looting stores in New Orleans. Just more fallout of our entitlement society. Situational ethics...if it meets my needs now, everyone else can be damned!http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/shake.gif

Shaun, wow.. I think I agree with you on everything you said.

I would also agree with most of what you said...except the part about our military doing all the "heavy lifting." Lots more Iraqi soldiers and policemen are dying in the streets than our soldiers. They are certainly pulling their weight....in you define that in lives lost.
It would be nice to back away and let them fend for themselves....but we could never handle the political fallout. Heck, we kept/still have soldiers in Germany, Japan, South Korea, and Yugoslavia for many years while those countries rebuilt.

I agree with this - and fint and I don't agree on much! We are committed and we have to stay there, for years or decades if need be. The damn place is now our responsibility - "you break it, you buy it".

Whenever there's talk of entitlements, welfare, etc., I recite the following:

"On either end of the socioeconomic spectrum, there lies a leisure class."

The middle always pays.

Do you really believe less than 1,800 Iraqis have died???

Very good question! context is so important here and the numbers do float. There's the entire population of Iraq, there's the coalition forces, and then there's the trained military, but then some like Rumsfeld include military and police in their numbers, but then there are people like Fintstone, who is in the Army (correct me if I am wrong) who say that the police are not part of the trained military.

The real question is, "of the entire population of Iraqi's actively fighting for democracy in their country, how many have died in that service?"

You are wrong.

When I say heavy lifting, I mean they are the rock solid infrastructure against which the Iraqi military can even exist. Without our boys there, it would be a whole different ball game. The Iraqis would have to create their own military from scratch and fight hard and long if they wanted to own their country. Now it's sort of rent to own deal.

not saying I have the answers, and don't think we should just leave, but I think the current set-up is a recipe for disaster down the road.

Good discussion.

This model did work in Japan and Germany after the war. If anything, we are moving much faster than in those situations (too fast in my opinion). Yes, we still do have a military presence in both of those countries, but we are no longer the power behind the throne, if you will, in either of those countries.

One disadvantage to our overwhelmining military superiority is that we can win conflicts so quickly that the populace never becomes sick of war. I believe a key reason our occupations in Germany and Japan when relatively smoothly was because the people there just wanted the war to end after years of fighting and millions of lives lost.

Nope, the real question is how many died trying to change the country. Don't forget all the political arrests throughout the Saddam administration, and the number of Shia that died in the rebellion Saddam put down after the first Gulf War.

Compare w/the China experience. Would you discount the lives lost in Tiananmen square in pursuit of democracy because they weren't in the police or a rebuilt military? Remember the guy who lay down in front of the tank?

When you say this model, what do you mean, exactly?

Are you saying FDR cobbled together some phony excuse to invade Japan and Germany?

Bushies love to tout Japan and Germany as justification for Iraq, but really, GWB himself hasn't been dumb enough (yet) to try to make that comparison (that I know of, anyway).

Japan and Germany were utterly and thoroughly subjugated militarily before any nation building began, and the justifcation for doing so was crystal clear.

Mission accomplished claims to the contrary, this was not the case with Iraq. Not for a lack of shock and awe, but because this isn't your grandfather's warfare anymore. WWII and Iraq are completely different types of wars, with completely different rules of engagement, strategies, tactics, and technologies.

Iraq isn't 'winnable' in the same way that WWII was, because of the thin facade of an excuse for the war in the first place. If Iraq had done anything like what Germany and Japan had done in WWII, nobody would be whining about 'collateral damage' or soldiers shoving glow sticks up the asses of Iraqi civilians. The longer this charade continues, the less winnable it becomes. If we had engaged Iraq at the same level as Germany and Japan, there wouldn't be an insurgency - hell, there probably wouldn't be an Iraq - but there'd be Chinese and Russian tanks on the streets of Baghdad to contend with.

legion - I think the Marshal plan worked in Germany and Japan for a few reasons:
1) Germany was heavily industrialized and had a good source of folks with some chops. The country always could pull together and focus albeit misguided sometimes. The bombing was a disruption but it didn't brake them. Their society and education lended itself to be well on it's way to being a major player in the world economy. They could come back and they did.
2) Japan was also industrialized and had/has a society that values hard work and redundent education which lends itself to being able to knock products out. They may or may not work as hard (this has always been controversal) but they do mass produc ewith the best of them.
3) Japen adopted Charles Deming when the US laughed at him. What the Deming princples did for Japan was nothing less than miraculous. I know many engineers and scientists from Japan and even Korea and China. What they lack in imagination that more than make up for in technocal chops and can apply what they learn very very well. Make no bones about it - Japanese folks are creative, just not as lofty as the Americans.
4) Iraq has a old culture but a devided one as well. They just do not have the chops or mindset that the Germans or the Japanese have when it comes to industrialization. If Japan or Germany had the oil interests that Iraq has we would have a compeletly different world. I am most sure of that.

Prediction - Iraq will never be able to sustain itself as it sits right now. To much is getting in their way...including their culture, more's, and folkway's. Really sad, becuase they can be a beautiful people with a rich past.

No, Bush is now resorting to the WW2 card.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083001078.html

Bush Calls Iraq War Moral Equivalent Of Allies' WWII Fight Against the Axis

By Peter Baker and Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 31, 2005; Page A07

CORONADO, Calif., Aug. 30 -- Invoking the spirit of Franklin D. Roosevelt, President Bush on Tuesday cast the war in Iraq as the modern-day moral equivalent of the struggle against Nazi fascism and Japanese imperialism in World War II, arguing that the United States cannot retreat without disastrous consequences.

Bush used a ceremony marking the 60th anniversary of the victory over Japan to try to fortify public will at a time of unremitting violence in Iraq. It was third time in the last week that he has delivered a stay-the-course speech to counter an energized antiwar sentiment. Speaking at a naval base near the docked USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier, Bush characterized Iraqi insurgents as every bit a "ruthless" enemy as the Germans and the Japanese.

[rest of article not pasted]

Guess his poll numbers hitting all-time lows must sting a bit. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083000302.html

In addition to the entitlement program we are providing for Iraq right now it is important to keep in mind that the entire modern middle east was built on a different sort of entitlement program. Oil. The elite controlling the government don't need to have a vibrant economy with an industrious middle class they can tax to live off of. They only need to sell their oil. Then they end up having to spend a lot of this money to appease and/or repress the common folk who feel left out. This leads to the Osama Bin Ladens of the world. This is of course a gross simplification, but you get the idea.

Wolfie and Perle and Rummy...were out to LUNCH....Iraq never was a country the gang of three completely overlooked the demographics of the territory...Kurd, Shia and Sunni....before they lept into the fire...Japan and Germay had a HOMOGENUS POPULATION...

Until those groups reconcil themselves all is going to be chaos in Iraq...

Sadam was the unifying principle in Iraq

Reconciliation may mean at the end of a gun....

The concept of Democracy in the ME is completely foreign to the Culture and Religion...there simply is NO tradition....the closest thing was British Rule after WW1...

If U want to see what the Administration is really thinking these days...look at where Wolfie goes to work every mornining... The World Bank and look what LBJ did with McNamera when he wanted to get rid of him...gave him the job at the World Bank...

Bushes mistake was in listening to these guys...these guys who were supposedily the BEST AND BRIGHTEST....I do think Bushy is perplexed as to what to do next....his experts failed him...and in reality there is NO EASY ANSWER OR WAY OUT...

If the USA were to leave tommorow the fkin place would become another Somillia and in the chaos the Jihadies could thrive...so the USA is stuck with being a guarantor of stability and as such will continue to trickle out blood and money...The REGION due to the strategic importance of oil as the fuel of choich for the world economy is of National Security Importance to the USA...End of Story

Or if U are so dead set on leaving the place just think what $7.00 for a gallon of gas would do to the US economy....hmmm end life as we know it...end of the MIDDLE CLASS....

and that brings another rant up....the Middle Class.....

In my day..being Middle Class meant Dad went off to workd and Moms stayed at home...then in the 70's and 80's Moms had to go to work along with Dad to keep up the Middle Class lifestyle....now as the century turned it takes Mom, Dad and the Credit Card to maintain the Middle Class lifestyle....

This is true and not true. Today the middle class family has more, and expects more then they did 50 years ago. My grandfather was an engineer, and made pretty decent money, but my grandparents lived in a smaller house then I have, only had one car, no TV, DVD player, cell phones, computer or internet, etc.. Probably the worst is the charge it mentality. Paying credit card interest makes everything much more expensive.

So then ED your saying we are living beyond our means...

All those items you mentioned as being part of the MIddle Class lifestyle are inexpensive in of themselves do to the economy of scale brought to you by the mega corporations...however in my Grandmas day Radio, TV, Washing Machines, Refergrators, telephones and cars were the luxury items of the day...and that was more expensive than livin on the farm...with outdoor plumbing...

I think the Middle Class LIFESTYLE is DONE FOR in America...and in REALITY Bushy ain't the harbringer...it's been happening for DECADES...and we are just finding more desperate ways of maintaining the illusion....

BHushy like Regan and Eisenhower is a DELAGATOR...he delagates his authority to the so called experts...

OHHHH BTW SO CAL U fell into my trap....it was Kennedy who fearing being called a Communist Lover...got the US engaged in Vietnam...with ALOT OF US MILITARY ADVISORS.....and all this was based upon the advice of his BEST and the BRIGHTEST Advisors....so ***** happens and mistakes are made even by the SHARP Presidents

BTW...The Best and Brightest was the term given to the WIZ KIDS that Kennedy had as Advisors and Cabinet members....

I contend that it is possible for a single income to raise a family even in expensive areas like So Cal. You have to avoid credit card debt, buy property when prices are lower (e.g. not right now), save as much as possible before having kids, not always have a new car, cell phone, latest digital camera, ipod, whatever, bring lunch to work, don't go to starbucks, do your own car and home maintainence, etc.

How many people pay to have their lawn mowed, car washed, house cleaned, kids taken care of, etc. Here in so cal it is nearly $1000/month per kid, $200+/month for house cleaning, $75/month for yard work, $20 for a car wash every couple weeks, etc, etc. We don't have any of those expenses.

Sure TVs and DVD players are cheap, but then add on cable TV and buying or renting DVDs, and it gets expensive. We spend nearly $1000 a year for cable, and nearly $900 a year on cell phones. I lived without TV from '93-99, and that saved me a lot of money.

We don't have a car payment because we drive older cars. When a pipe started leaking a couple weeks ago I went to home depot, got the parts, and fixed it myself. Our only debt is the mortgage. If we want to buy anything we save money until we can afford to buy it.

There's nothing magical about what we are doing. Instead of instant gratification it's delayed gratification. If the middle class dies it will be of it's own doing.

The middle-class now is the upper-class 50 years ago and the very wealthy 100 years ago. Not talking income but rather the comfort and quality of life in these United States.

We eat better, live longer, have more media stimulation if we so choose and use various devices that were the stuff of sci-fi not long ago. If it all went bust and we had to revert back to the way it was 50 years ago, it would be painful but it could be done as a matter of fact, I would be willing to bet that some folks would even get pretty freaking rich - they would set their minds at making a real go at it and before you know it a new Rockafella is born.

This is not a correct view. John Kennedy was brilliant and visionary. He's one of those guys who slept roughly 3-4 hours per night. There is no similarity whatsoever between John Kennedy and Dubya.

I think it's obvious that Dubya was a good choice for the people in power who actually run this country by controlling its poltical process and therefore its commerce and industry, as a presidential candidate. He truly believes the crap he spews, so there was no chance that he'd be found to be deliberately manipulative with his remarks. And he has been very easily and very effectively duped. I wonder if he's figured out that he's been had. I doubt it. I doubt he will ever figure that out. I think many people will never figure that out.

I look at this whole thing like a car accident. It's happened and it really doesn't matter who was "at fault" or "to blame" what matters now is putting things back together in a way that will be safe for all involved.

I supported the Iraq War from day one yet I admit I haven't always been happy with what I hear, on days like that I defer to my grandfather as well as my boss. Grandfather is a WWII vet and the boss is a Korean War vet. They will both tell you that the media have no place in a war zone. Both of them still have nightmares and regrets of the things they did while at war yet both believe that the ends justified the means. If we think of WWII as an example what was our reason for going into Europe, Im mean Europe never attacked us. Why didn't we just fight the Japanese who actually attacked us? The reason then is the same reason now and like then it might take a few generations for people to fully comprehend the reason and that reason is homeland security and protecting our allies. In the 40's we could little afford to have Europe controlled by a manicial dictator and today we cannot afford to have the ME controlled by dictators either. My boss remembers when we lost more men in a single day than we've lost in the entire Iraq War, my granfather fought in the Battle of the Bulge where I believe we lost more men than the entirety of Vietnam. And just how many where lost at Gettysburg? I believe people need to stand back and look at the big picture but this generation of Americans is different, we tend to be pessimistic partly due to the coverage we are spoon fed by the media, my grandfather's generation was optimistic and he continues to be that way even today with failing health at age 90. Personally I admire that attitude and try to think like that as muchas possible. In my life I've had many struggles and everytime I've kept a positive outlook things have turned out OK. If we as a people could just realize that we are in Iraq and put the reasons asside perhaps we could think of positive ways to help the outcome rather than bicker back and forth about who is at fault which in my opinion is not constructive and therefore part of the problem. It's entirely acceptable to oppose the reasons for going to war while at the same time look for ways to help the US end it in a productive manner.

JFK had a best selling book called "Why England Slept" about their do nothing about Hitler policies all by the time he was 22.....

JFK was SHARP enough....

Hey Supe your no fking smarter than the Monkey in the WH...U bin suckered right along with the rest of the Bread and Circus crowd...yerr fat dumb and happy....

U don't get it...ANY Prez is a seat warmer...easily replaced...and the real power lies with the Corps that contribute MONEY to BOTH POLITICAL Partys....Money has corrupted our system...and now there is so much cross investment from this country to that country and back again....we have a Global Economy and the only thing that gets represented is that the system of Dollars keeps on perpetuating itiself.... and anybody who upsets that applecart has to go...Sadam OBL etc.....

That was the horror of 911 the ABYSS opened up when those planes hit the towers tha system of $$$$ was shaken....a crisis of LIQUIDITY...the Buildings and People in them meant NOTHING...it was the $$$$....and credibility of the US backing those $$$$$.....Oil is only the LUBRICATION that keeps the system of $$$$ moving....

Superman,

With all due respect, JFK's legacy was cemented with his assasination and the history books where "amended" to preserve that legacy. He was a good president but not as great as many would have you believe. In the spirit of fairness I don't think Reagan lived up the the hype either. Nixon, ridiculed for his role in Watergate was never given credit for his accomplisments with China for example. I do my best to view newscasts with a critical eye and try to weed out the leftist or rightist slant.

anyone catch the hearings today?

I missed it.

Is it another plan to provide on-going "welfare" for the Iraqi government that doesn't work?

What do ya expect from a bunch of goat herders....anyway Shaun...

There was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab, the Professor noticed one young man, an exchange student, who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist regime.

In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked:

"Do you know how to catch wild pigs?"

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said that it was no joke.

"You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming.

When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side.

The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat that free corn again.

You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn . They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity."

The young man t hen told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America . The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax cuts, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. While we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time.

One should always remember two truths:

1) There is no such thing as a free lunch.

2) You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

If you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America , you might want to send this on to your friends.


But God help us all when the gate slams shut!

Anyone still wonder how the Iraqi government is doing on those political milestones that were the companion to the troop surge, or was that never really an important part of the President's plan? McCain is right, we'll be there a hundred years.

The key four (of seven) legislative benchmarks have been met. Nearly all of the security benchmarks have been met. Overall, about 12 of the total 18 have been met. Certainly a better record of success than the legislative promises that Pelosi set forth for the 110th Congress.

I don't think it can measure up to the railroad entitlements of the mid-1800s.

Otherwise, yes, it is completely corrupt -- but what did you expect from Cheney et al.?

Do ya' think we should bring back the Phoenix Program?

I will buy you a beer if we ever meet. You get it. One of 10%; tops.

Edit: to be specific I oppose the reasons for going to war in IZ, but I do not oppose going; needed to be done....just could have been done better.