Pelican audiophiles... what is 7.1 and why is it better than the 5.1 I got now?

scottmandue · 08-04-2005, 03:56 PM

Okay so the recent thread on sub woofers reminds me I was thinking of upgrading me receiver. So what is all this about 7.1, do I need to add more speakers?

I'm on a low budget so my current system is a JVC with 120W X5 channel (yeah I wanted a Dennon but couldn't afford it) it does have optical in/outs.
I picked up a set of the JBL surrounds (good but not great)
The fronts were weak on bass so I replaced them with two Sony towers 2X 6" 1X 4" and a dome tweeter (these gave me more of the bass guitar range I like) and moved the small JBL fronts to my bedroom. Finally I added a CV 15" 250W sub to shake things up a bit.

I see Sony makes a nice receiver in the 120W/channel range with 7.1 somewhere around $1000+.

So anyone want to help me justify dropping some more change on my system that works fine and sounds good?

COLDBASS · 08-04-2005, 04:35 PM

How is this...women dig nice sound systems...need any more justifcation?

88BlueTSiQuest · 08-04-2005, 05:22 PM

5.1 is 5 discrete audio channels of sound. I guess I should step backwards to help out...

First there was Dolby Surround sound, which utilized 5 speakers. However, it was still just 2 channel audio, that had specific encoding to 'simulate' surround sound. It would run a mix of out of phase sound effects that would be 'mixed' back into phase to be played through the rear speakers, and any equal volume sounds would appear localized through the center speaker.

When Laser Disc was introduced, they were able to utilize more audio channels, so the first 'Dolby Digital', AC3, was implemented, which gave you 5 independant channels of surround. Where Dolby Surround was still only 2 channel, and could only play both rears at the same time, Dolby Digital now has control of each individual speaker, allowing for true sound directionality.

5.1 Surround merely added an LFE(Low Frequency Effects) channel for independant subwoofer control.

6.1 DTS Discrete is just how it sounds. 6 independant channels of sound with the .1 LFE channel(7 channels if you wish to count it like that).

Channels are:
Fronts - Left, Center, Right
Left and Right Surround Side
Center rear.
LFE.

7.1 is merely 5.1 channels of discrete sound, with the 6th and 7th speaker running mono and mixed off the 4th and 5th speakers in much the same way that the center channel speaker in the original Dolby Surround(2 channel) setup was used.

Channels are:
Fronts - Left, Center, Right.
Left and Right Surround Side.
Left and Right rear.
LFE.

Allthough there are technically more speakers in the 7.1 setup, the Rears are essentially just an extension of the Surrounds, and not a true independant channel. Most 7.1 receivers usually have the rears hardwired together in the receiver. This can be seen by looking at the rear of the receiver, and examining how to hook up a single rear speaker(usually Left Rear +, Right Rear -, or vice-versa). Most 7.1 Receivers are DTS-ES compatible, which is why a single rear hookup is listed.

Personally, I enjoy 6.1 DTS-ES Discrete much better than Dolby Digital mixes. Especially when the Center rear is actually utilized to it's fullest potential. 7.1 merely uses the rears for 'ambiance', and doesn't have the ability to make the rears directional at all, they merely try to use them to compliment the surround sides.

88BlueTSiQuest · 08-04-2005, 05:31 PM

A little more info.

Generally with a 7.1 system, you should follow the THX guidelines for speakers. This would have you installing Bipole speakers on the sides and rear of the system, to further 'blur' the soundstage, and eliminate your ability to pin point the source of sound.

DTS seems to play on the actual directionality, so direct radiating speakers all the way around are a nice choice. But you can still choose to set it up in the THX fashion.

If you are totally happy with your current speakers, but would like to get into a 7.1 environment, you could simply consider going with another center channel speaker like you currently have, and pick up any 7.1 receiver. As I stated in my previous reply, most 7.1 receivers are capable of driving a single rear speaker, and since the actual surround backs are monaural, you wouldn't lose any sound to the missing speaker.

If you have a DTS capable DVD player, you might find the 6.1 surround a better mix anyways, as I tend to find that most DTS encoded movies are generally louder, and have more effects than the Dolby mixes. Besides, the fact that DTS actually uses the 6th speaker as an independant channel, vs. Dolby using 'tricks' to make you think they are independant.

scottmandue · 08-05-2005, 07:09 AM

Mongo want make happy sounds out of little boxes!

Okay Jack, when I become emperor you will be in charge of all things audio.

But seriously, I think my receiver has DTS and a whole other alphabet soup on the front plate, I'll check when I get home from work. My receiver and DVD have discrete in/out and the receiver has a graphic that lights up what channels it is outputting (is that a word?).
Fronts - Left, Center, Right
Left and Right Surround Side
Center rear.
LFE.

Doesn't sound like (pun not intended) it is worth the $$$ just to add a extra speaker.

Probably better to spend the cash having my T belt done and maybe look for a set of 16" Fuchs.

Thanks

88BlueTSiQuest · 08-05-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scottmandue
Mongo want make happy sounds out of little boxes!

Okay Jack, when I become emperor you will be in charge of all things audio.

But seriously, I think my receiver has DTS and a whole other alphabet soup on the front plate, I'll check when I get home from work. My receiver and DVD have discrete in/out and the receiver has a graphic that lights up what channels it is outputting (is that a word?).
Fronts - Left, Center, Right
Left and Right Surround Side
Center rear.
LFE.

Doesn't sound like (pun not intended) it is worth the $$$ just to add a extra speaker.

Probably better to spend the cash having my T belt done and maybe look for a set of 16" Fuchs.

Thanks

If you have a center rear surround, it sounds like your receiver is DTS-ES capable. Which IMHO, is much better than 7.1 surround(Dolby Digital Surround EX), as the extra channel is discrete. The only thing that a 7.1 receiver adds that your's doesn't is that special encoding to play the surround backs during Dolby Digital surround movies. My rear center is dead during Dolby Digital movies, it only works during DTS encoded movies.

Now, if you have all 6 surround speakers, you could vary well upgrade to a DTS-ES enabled receiver that is also 7.1, and just use the 6 speakers you have in their current cofiguration. This will gain you the Dolby Digital Surround EX capabilities, without the added expensive of extra speakers.

scottmandue · 08-05-2005, 03:23 PM

DOH!
I got lazy and cut and pasted the speaker configuration, what I have (on the face plate that lights up to show what speakers are working)
Fronts - Left, Center, Right
Left and Right Surround Side
LFE.

As in when all I have is stereo front left, right lights up.
When I play a DVD with the right encoding everything lights up.

Mongo bad, Mongo use cut and paste with bad technique, Mongo go back to cave and hit self with rock...

scottmandue · 08-05-2005, 03:27 PM

Okay so I could add one center rear AND get a new receiver ($$$).

Jack, what receiver do you think has the most cluck for you buck if I wanted to up grade (remember I'm on a budget)

TIA

Travis at Pelican Parts · 08-05-2005, 03:48 PM

I'd love to hear about a good 6.1 Receiver/Setup as well. I'm finishing a remodel on my house and a good sound setup to compliment the big screen is of course required

imcarthur · imcarthur's Garage

I think that you are focusing in the wrong direction. 5.1 vs 7.1 vs DTS vs etc is just decoding. More channels. Before you leap up & buy more electronics to 'upgrade' an existing system - ask yourself: "How does it sound now?"

Play some music - not just film. Not so good? Too little bass? Too much bass? Vocals sound like crap? Highs sear your face? Then look to your loudspeakers first. This is typically the weakest area in most home theater systems. In the old '2-channel days', speakers used to consume 1/3 of the whole hifi budget. Now people are buying 5 + sub or 6 + or 7 + speakers rather than only 2 - but they haven't increased their budget allocation. So the quality of the whole system suffers.

Listen to a bunch of them. They should match tonally - all the way around although the left/center/right are the most critical for film. But they must sound good or any money you spend on electronics is a waste.

Disclaimer: I am in the industry & I do sell loudspeakers.

Ian

88BlueTSiQuest · 08-05-2005, 05:14 PM

I'm a big fan of Pioneer, if you are looking for the budget receiver, that is.

The new VSX-D1015TX-k is practically an Elite in Pioneer clothing, and quite honestly the best bang for the buck from any manufacturer.

If money were no object I'd broaden my search to include Denon and Sunfire. The Sunfire's are actually 9.1 capable using a software upgrade and an external 2 channel amp, when and if 9.1 ever hits the streets. And the Denon flagship is just flat out impressive looking, being nearly twice as tall as even the largest Elite model.

Me personally, I'm looking into getting a new Pioneer, I want the VSX-9300tx, which is simply a re-badged Elite 56TXi minus the i-link. It's a significant jump in price though compared to the 1015, and available features aren't really different enough to make the average consumer wish to make the jump. The 9300 is basically just giving you better THD % and a stouter power supply over the 1015's specs.

I currently own a Pioneer VSX-D850S, and have been very happy with it's performance, but being an electronics junky, it's time to upgrade.... Plus I want an actual THX certified receiver(1015 and the 9300 are THX certified).

scottmandue · 08-06-2005, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by imcarthur
I think that you are focusing in the wrong direction. 5.1 vs 7.1 vs DTS vs etc is just decoding. More channels. Before you leap up & buy more electronics to upgrade an existing system - ask yourself: "How does it sound now?"

Disclaimer: I am in the industry & I do sell loudspeakers.

Ian

I agree totally Ian,

Did I mention that my old system (Luxman high current amp with two Altec Lansing A-7 voice of the theater speakers) is still set up in my garage?

With automobiles and audio I have very expensive taste but a very low budget. For example I started looking at $5000 projectors and ended up with a (very nice) $500 36" monitor. I also built up my system piece by piece to spread out the cost. I started with my old 25" monitor, a JBL Northridge (?) surround set of speaker that I auditioned at Best Buy and the top of the line JVC that I did a bunch of research on then bought off the Internet for half the MSRP. I then added the CW sub and later the 36". Finally I wasn't getting enough bass out of the front L&R so I went to Sony tower that I again auditioned at BB, there were other towers that sounded a little better however for twice the price so I stuck with the Sony's. I then spent allot of time tweaking with the receiver and SW settings to get a sound I like. Overall I think your average person thinks I have a high end system but I know it is a mutt system that just sounds pretty good.

Ian, so what do you like for speakers?

Thanks Jack, I will look into the Pioneer, I have always liked there stuff too.

88BlueTSiQuest · 08-06-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scottmandue
, a JBL Northridge (?) surround set of speaker that I auditioned at Best Buy

JBL isn't too shabby. I actually run the JBL Studio line in my theater(2 S-CenterII's, and 4 S-38II's). The crossover points are all the same in the Studio line, so the tonal quality is pretty damned close between the 38 and Center. I did a ton of research, and IIRC the Infinity line didn't all share the same cross over points(JBL and Infinity are owned by the Harman group).

If I had unlimited cash, I'd of probably gone with KEF speakers myself.....

scottmandue · 08-06-2005, 03:03 PM

Jack,
I can find the VSX-9300TX for sale on the web but not the VSX-D1015TX-k...
and at the Pioneer website they show the VSX-D1015TX-k but not the VSX-9300TX...
Stupid Internet!

Oh well, the VSX-9300TX is the better receiver right? and it is within my price range so I may be getting one of those.

I get some Hi-Fi DIY magazines that have surround speaker kits that look interesting as a speaker upgrade.

88BlueTSiQuest · 08-07-2005, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scottmandue
Jack,
I can find the VSX-9300TX for sale on the web but not the VSX-D1015TX-k...
and at the Pioneer website they show the VSX-D1015TX-k but not the VSX-9300TX...
Stupid Internet!

Oh well, the VSX-9300TX is the better receiver right? and it is within my price range so I may be getting one of those.

I get some Hi-Fi DIY magazines that have surround speaker kits that look interesting as a speaker upgrade.

Yes, the 9300 is the better of the 2 receivers. It's actually about 1 year older than the 1015, but the 1015 technically uses cheaper components. The 9300 also uses the 'AIR Studios' processing, and has more THX surround modes than the 1015.

You can compare them on www.bestbuy.com, as the online site actually has both receivers, but in store they only stock the 1015.

Pioneer's website doesn't list the 9300 due to marketing strategies, why show the public a cheaper receiver that is actually the same thing as the 56TXi, just missing the 'i' feature. To look at the 9300's features though, simply look at the Elite Receivers, and select the features of the 56TXi, and remember that i-link was left out of the 9300.

As to power, sure the 1015 claims 10 more watts per channel, but that is at a higher THD. The 9300 will be cleaner, and more efficient.

The other difference between the 1015 and 9300 is THX certification. The 1015 is 'Select 2' where as the 9300 is only 'Select'. This shouldn't have any bearing on your decision, as it's 'an age thing', if the 9300 were 1 year newer, it too would be 'Select 2'.

imcarthur · imcarthur's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by scottmandue
Ian, so what do you like for speakers?

The ones I sell of course.

Always consistent: JMlab, B&W, Paradigm, Dynaudio

Speakers are very subjective. Each brand has it's own sonic signature. Bear in mind that the room & a speaker's position in a room can alter it dramatically. Avoid corners. Try to keep them pulled out from the wall. Toe them in slightly.

Ian

tabs · 08-08-2005, 10:07 AM

Now this is what I consider an Amp to be....

http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MC2600&nav=cat

Travis at Pelican Parts · 08-08-2005, 10:26 AM

How big does a room have to be to make it a dedicated "theater" room? Carpet or hardwood? I have a room I'm modelling up now for a game room though have found it a bit too small to fit the stuff I want in it and a pool table. I may switch directions with it.

TerryH · TerryH's Garage

Bottom line IMHO. If your room is very large you will benefit from the extra surround channels. If your room is average to small, don't waste your time or money. My home theater is 20x18. I run 5.1 and it totally rocks. My receiver is capable of a 6th channel, but I see no need.

Hint, don't try to get bass from your mains. Set them to small and let your subwoofer handle things below 100hz. A good sub will make your system sound complete. Large sub doesn't mean good sub.

If you want to improve your sound, buy Avia or Video Essentials and calibrate what you already own. With a Radio Shack sound pressure meter, a simple system can sound very good when calibrated.

88BlueTSiQuest · 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travis at Pelican Parts
How big does a room have to be to make it a dedicated "theater" room? Carpet or hardwood? I have a room I'm modelling up now for a game room though have found it a bit too small to fit the stuff I want in it and a pool table. I may switch directions with it.

I'd base that on what you really want to put in it. I have a roughly 16x14.5 foot room I use as my Theater. In it I run a 64" Pioneer HDTV, and DTS 6.1 surround sound, with all speakers located in the proper THX placement.

I enjoy the somewhat smallish room, as it makes the appearance of the 64" TV just right, IMO. Some people actually build their theater rooms around their TV, so it's usually a long and narrow room, I've even seen some who've built trapezoid shaped rooms that more resemble a movie theatre, going narrow by the screen, and widening out for the seating area.

There is a 'formula' for the perfect theater room sound equation. Here's a web page that explains that info, and gives you a calculator to play with: http://www.cinemasource.com/articles/room_modes/modes.html

I'd say that carpet would be better. Hardwood would be a 'reflective' surface, that could color the sound somewhat. You might also suffer from echos too.