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-   -   POLL: Of all post WW2 prez's, who performed worst? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/240361-poll-all-post-ww2-prezs-who-performed-worst.html)

DaveE 09-12-2005 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pwd72s
Sad but true...the best way to turn a hated world leader into a beloved one is to assassinate him. Kennedy had more than his share of screw-ups, but they are now either forgotten or forgiven.
He also got us into Vietnam, by sending "advisors"...

I think "advisors" went in during the '50s.

Steeve 09-12-2005 11:18 AM

Out of all the questionable people in the list, 3 of you actually voted that Reagan was the worst President after WWII??? Come on now, who did it?

The only way I can figure is he slept with your wife or something. Because the facts absolutely don't support it.

stevepaa 09-12-2005 11:33 AM

Mule and I don't agree very often. But Johnson was it, and I would put Nixon second. And I have no clue why there are so many apologists trying to rewrite Nixon history.

kach22i 09-12-2005 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
And I have no clue why there are so many apologists trying to rewrite Nixon history.
You forgot to drink your Kool-Aid again, that's why.:)

http://members.aol.com/conniemilhous...erykoolaid.jpg

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
But Johnson was it, and I would put Nixon second. And I have no clue why there are so many apologists trying to rewrite Nixon history.
What exactly did Nixon do that Clinton didn't do...Nixon resigned for a coverup of a crime; exactly what Clinton did...but Clinton actually violated a law, compounded by the coverup, he signed and dragged the country through the mud.

stevepaa 09-12-2005 01:31 PM

Here we go again.

Clinton's personal conduct pales in comparison to the abuse of government power by Nixon and his henchmen.

Nixon campaign aide Herbert Porter pleaded guilty to the charge of lying to the FBI during the early stages of the Watergate investigation
Nixon appointments secretary Dwight Chapin was convicted of lying to the grand jury.
John Newton Mitchell was the firstUnited States Attorney General United States Attorney General ever to be convicted of illegal activities and imprisoned.
Ehrlichman was convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, perjury and other charges in 1975 for which he served 18 months in prison.
Magruder was sentenced to 4 months to 10 years for his role in the failed Watergate burglary and subsequent coverup.
Liddy was convicted of conspiracy, burglary, and illegal wiretapping and served four and a half years in prison before having his 20 year sentence commuted by President Jimmy Carter.
Hunt was convicted of burglary, conspiracy, and wiretapping, eventually serving 33 months in prison.
Haldeman was convicted of conspiracy and obstruction of justice and sentenced to an 18-month prison sentence, which he served in Lompoc Federal Prison.
Nixon resigned and was saved from going to prison by a pardon.

techweenie 09-12-2005 01:56 PM

Articles of impeachment were being drawin up against Nixon when he resigned... interesingly enough, at the same approval levels enjoyed by our current president.

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
Here we go again.

Clinton's personal conduct pales in comparison to the abuse of government power by Nixon and his henchmen.

Nixon campaign aide Herbert Porter pleaded guilty to the charge of lying to the FBI during the early stages of the Watergate investigation
Nixon appointments secretary Dwight Chapin was convicted of lying to the grand jury.
John Newton Mitchell was the firstUnited States Attorney General United States Attorney General ever to be convicted of illegal activities and imprisoned.
Ehrlichman was convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, perjury and other charges in 1975 for which he served 18 months in prison.
Magruder was sentenced to 4 months to 10 years for his role in the failed Watergate burglary and subsequent coverup.
Liddy was convicted of conspiracy, burglary, and illegal wiretapping and served four and a half years in prison before having his 20 year sentence commuted by President Jimmy Carter.
Hunt was convicted of burglary, conspiracy, and wiretapping, eventually serving 33 months in prison.
Haldeman was convicted of conspiracy and obstruction of justice and sentenced to an 18-month prison sentence, which he served in Lompoc Federal Prison.
Nixon resigned and was saved from going to prison by a pardon.

Need I go through a convictions and prosecutions list of Clinton cronies?...From ChiCom funny money to WhiteWater?...If I did and also cast a suspicious light on Clinton appointees that ended up dead, it would do nothing for me to prove my case that Clinton was worse than Nixon...Let me ask the question again..."What exactly did Nixon do that Clinton didn't do?"

Nixon covered up crimes less than Clinton himself committed in his illegal acquistion of 900 FBI files on his political enemies...After all, wasn't that what the Watergate burglars were going for?...dirt?

Maybe Clinton should have taped himself?...Nahhh...He was too honest for that.

Albeit Clinton was convicted (Nixon was not) of obstruction of justice and contempt of court for sexual harassment (the law he signed to buy the NAGs vote)...Nixon violated less than the crimes Clinton violated...Nixon covered up crimes for his party, Clinton covered up his crimes, suborned perjury, violated his oath, abused his power, obstructed justice, perjured and bribed witnesses like Betty Currie and Monica Lewinsky...Clinton was impeached, disbarred, fined and ordered to pay Paula Jones over $800,000.

Nixon's crimes were LESS THAN Clinton's.

Nixon resigned honorably, Clinton dragged the country through the mud and forced the public treasury to expend over $70 million to pursue him...Clinton used the power of the Presidency to obstruct justice, slander good people including Democrat women, and save his own skin...He WOULD NOT have stayed in office but for the Democrat Senators circling the wagons and violating their oathes of impartial justice.

stevepaa 09-12-2005 04:02 PM

Well, facts would certainly support your case better than slander.
What crimes were proven in court to have been performed by Clinton or any one in his staff regarding the Lewinsky debacle? Or any other event while Clinton was President?
Who, what crime, and what sentence?

techweenie 09-12-2005 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose

Nixon's crimes were LESS THAN Clinton's.


How old were you when Nixon was President?

pwd72s 09-12-2005 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by techweenie
How old were you when Nixon was President?
29. Clinton's crimes were worse. Get over it...

Rodeo 09-12-2005 07:11 PM

Just thought I’d give you guys some facts. Slug it out. Or, and I know this is not as much fun, see what you can agree on. From http://www.infoplease.com/spot/impeach.html

“Two U.S. presidents have been impeached: Andrew Johnson, the seventeenth chief executive, and William J. Clinton, the forty-second.

***

Bill Clinton was ultimately dragged down—though not defeated—by the character issues brought into question even before his election. An investigation into some suspect real estate dealings in which Clinton was involved prior to his presidency failed to turn up any implicating evidence. However, Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr managed to unravel a tangled web of alleged sexual advances and affairs in Clinton's past. The trail led to former White House intern Monica S. Lewinsky. After months of denials, including in a videotaped legal testimony, Clinton admitted in August of 1998 that he had had a sexual relationship with the young woman during the time of her internship.

The infamous "Starr Report" outlining the findings of the Independent Counsel's investigation was delivered to the House of Representatives on Sept. 9, 1998, and subsequently made available to the public. Many felt the report, filled with lurid details of Clinton's sexual encounters with Lewinsky, to be a political attack against the President rather than a legal justification for his impeachment. Of the 11 possible grounds for impeachment cited by Starr, four were eventually approved by the House Judiciary Committee: grand jury perjury, civil suit perjury, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power.

On December 19, following much debate over the constitutionality of the proceedings and whether or not Clinton could be punished by censure rather than impeachment, the House of Representatives held its historic vote. Clinton was impeached on two counts, grand jury perjury (228–206) and obstruction of justice (221–212), with the votes split along party lines. The Senate Republicans, however, were unable to gather enough support to achieve the two-thirds majority required for his conviction. On Feb. 12, 1999, the Senate acquitted President Clinton on both counts. The perjury charge failed by a vote of 55–45, with 10 Republicans voting against impeachment along with all 45 Democrats. The obstruction of justice vote was 50–50, with 5 Republicans breaking ranks to vote against impeachment.

***

Of thirty-five attempts at impeachment, only nine have come to trial. Because it cripples Congress with a lengthy trial, impeachment is infrequent. Many officials, seeing the writing on the wall, resign rather than face the ignominy of a public trial.

The most famous of these cases is of course that of President Richard Nixon, a Republican. After five men hired by Nixon's reelection committee were caught burglarizing Democratic party headquarters at the Watergate Complex on June 17, 1972, President Nixon's subsequent behavior—his cover-up of the burglary and refusal to turn over evidence—led the House Judiciary Committee to issue three articles of impeachment on July 30, 1974. The document also indicted Nixon for illegal wiretapping, misuse of the CIA, perjury, bribery, obstruction of justice, and other abuses of executive power. "In all of this," the Articles of Impeachment summarize, "Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as president and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice, and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States." Impeachment appeared inevitable, and Nixon resigned on Aug. 9, 1974. The Articles of Impeachment, which can be viewed at http://watergate.info/, leave no doubt that these charges qualify as "high crimes and misdemeanors," justifying impeachment.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/impeach.html

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
Well, facts would certainly support your case better than slander.
What crimes were proven in court to have been performed by Clinton or any one in his staff regarding the Lewinsky debacle? Or any other event while Clinton was President?
Who, what crime, and what sentence?
Are you truly that misinformed?

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, July 29) -- A federal judge has ordered President Bill Clinton to pay $90,686 for giving false testimony in the civil sexual harassment lawsuit filed against him by Paula Jones.

CNN

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rodeo
Just thought I’d give you guys some facts. Slug it out. Or, and I know this is not as much fun, see what you can agree on. From http://www.infoplease.com/spot/impeach.html

“Two U.S. presidents have been impeached: Andrew Johnson, the seventeenth chief executive, and William J. Clinton, the forty-second.
What am I supposed to gather from this editorial?

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 07:39 PM

"What exactly did Nixon do that Clinton didn't do?"

The silence is deafening...Yet some still persist in imagining (with the help of the media) that Nixon was some type of monster.

Goebbels must be saying, "see, I told ya so" in hell right now.

rrpjr 09-12-2005 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
Well, facts would certainly support your case better than slander.
What crimes were proven in court to have been performed by Clinton or any one in his staff regarding the Lewinsky debacle? Or any other event while Clinton was President?
Who, what crime, and what sentence?


- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad

* 40 government officials were indicted or convicted in the wake of Watergate. There was a total of 31 Reagan era convictions, including 14 because of Iran-Contra and 16 in the Department of Housing & Urban Development scandal. 47 individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine were convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes with 33 of these occurring during the Clinton administration itself. There were in addition 61 indictments or misdemeanor charges. 14 persons were imprisoned. A key difference between the Clinton story and earlier ones was the number of criminals with whom he was associated before entering the White House.

In truth, the most substantial evidence of actual conspiracies in the White House since Nixon's term involved Hilary Clinton -- who conspired not only to terminate but to destroy the reputations of the White House Travel Office personnel, conspired to develop an enemies' list in the White House basement, and conspired with Ira Magaziner to deny interested outside parties access into the activities of her Health Care Committee. For the latter she and Magaziner were fined $300,000 by Judge Royce Lamberth of the DC District Court, the only fine imposed against a first lady in US history. Lamberth in his ruling specifically and repeatedly used the term "conspiracy."

Rodeo 09-12-2005 07:41 PM

Edit: Nevermind. Carry on.

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by techweenie
How old were you when Nixon was President?
I wasn't born yesterday

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rrpjr
In truth, the most substantial evidence of actual conspiracies in the White House since Nixon's term involved Hilary Clinton -- who conspired not only to terminate but to destroy the reputations of the White House Travel Office personnel,
Billy Dale, whom she accused of embezzelment, ruined his life and publically slandered...later acquitted to a chorus of media silence.

This is one of my favorites:
Quote:

Johnny Chung, 43, who delivered a $50,000 campaign contribution to the White House and escorted Chinese businessmen to a presidential radio address, is cooperating with the Justice Department's investigation of finance abuses in the 1996 campaign.

As part of a plea agreement with federal prosecutors in March, Chung was charged with funneling illegal contributions to the 1996 Clinton-Gore campaign by asking friends and employees of his office technology firm to make donations for which they were later reimbursed. Chung was also charged with engaging in a similar "straw donor" scheme to assist the 1996 reelection bid of Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.).

As part of the plea, Chung agreed to cooperate with investigators, and soon told them that Chinese army Lt. Col. Liu Chaoying, an executive with a state-owned aerospace company, gave him $300,000 to donate to the Democrats' 1996 campaign. Chung's allegation – hotly denied by Liu and the Chinese government – is the strongest evidence yet of a direct money trail from the Chinese government to Democratic campaign coffers.
Yep...nothing to see here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/players/chung.htm

http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/107560.jpg

quid pro quo...res ipsa loquitor

Mulhollanddose 09-12-2005 09:20 PM

The Federal Election Commission disclosed yesterday it has imposed a record-setting $719,000 in fines against participants in the 1996 Democratic Party fundraising scandals involving contributions from China, Korea and other foreign sources.

The FEC documents describe Democratic fundraisers who set specific prices for foreign nationals to make illegal campaign contributions in return for meetings with then-President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore. A Democratic finance vice chair, for example, said organizers would have to contribute $100,000 in return for Gore's appearance at a Buddhist temple in Los Angeles.

Those penalized included the Democratic National Committee, the Clinton-Gore campaign, the Buddhist temple and nearly two dozen people and corporations acting as conduits for illegal contributions. All have agreed to pay, according to the documents.


WashingtonCompost

Again, media silence is deafening...Now what about Nixon?...Besides ending Johnson's quagmire.


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