America's biggest math problem

[MikeCT]

I'm sitting here today working through math homework for a pre-cal class and thinking about the america's problem thread and then about the attitude of some students in math courses. The first 2 classes of the course have been a review of the basic things we should know for the course. When the teacher was quickly going over a problem one student asks if partial credit will be given for only completing a certain part of the problem. The teacher's answer was yes partial credit is given. This has been the case for other math courses I have taken, partial credit on tests and quizes. Now I have most likely benefited from the partial credit a few times but I just don't agree with the practice. A good knowledge of mathematics is useful in many fields but most importantly the problem solving skills gained in basic mathematics courses, such as a pre-cal class, is the reason it is taught at all grade levels. What kind of standard is set when American students learn that they do not need the knowledge of completing an entire problem but will still earn credit for their half-a$$ed job? I haven't asked my father or grandfather if there was any partial credit when they were in school but I'm will to bet the answer is no. Why the change? The low standards (especially in math) for students in this country are a reflection of some larger problem(s) that exists in our culture. I think it stems from a complacent attitude. An "I tried so that counts" attitude rather than "I tried but I will do better" attitude. I think I'm starting to ramble so [/rant].

[vash]

in the real world, nobody cares that cos@+sin@ = 1.

and i am an engineer. if you blast thru a 3 page math problem, and on the last page, you forget to carry a negative sign through the problem, and get the wrong answer, you deserve partial credit. imagine the grades for a test with one problem. getting a Zero would hurt.

[IROC]

One of my mech engineering classes (controls) was taught by a professor that did not believe in partial credit. His tests were not that tough, but the "no partial credit" thing was devastating on occasion.

There's no partial credit in the real world. Miss a sign and people could die. Luckily there are checks and balances for that kind of stuff.

Mike

[MikeCT]

Originally posted by vash
in the real world, nobody cares that cos@+sin@ = 1.

and i am an engineer. if you blast thru a 3 page math problem, and on the last page, you forget to carry a negative sign through the problem, and get the wrong answer, you deserve partial credit. imagine the grades for a test with one problem. getting a Zero would hurt.

So you didn't do the problem correctly if you forgot to carry the negative. And grades are not the most important thing in the world, learning an attention to detail would be more important.

[DaveE]

How many millions were lost when that equipment crashed on Mars because someone confused miles with km?

[vash]

me? naw, i was a straight A student. it is the rest of the class i was thinking about.

mikeCT, i dont know if you will need to take a PE exam in your future. i did. you literally have minutes to do these monster problems. it was like guerilla tactics problem solving. reverse engineering, process of elimination, etc. whatever was fast and efficient. you will understand afterwards.

the other mike is correct about checks and balances.

[mikester]

Math is not human but humans are. Simple errors are just that - and they are forgivable.

I recently finished a Calculus class and believe it or not - the tests were open book. The instructor said bring any books or notes you want. Just don't cheat off someone elses exam of course.

The test was still quite hard.

His perspective; and he teaches at a lot of local universities and tutors students regularly was that memorizing formulas was useless for a test as you would always be able to look them up if you needed them.

The test was still hard, in fact it was harder than most closed book tests I have had.

Then I took the same instructor for statistics - I don't even want to tell you how hard that one was and he still let us use the book on the tests. I got an A in both but I surely worked for both. Had I not taken good notes, paid attention in class and understood the subject the book would have been useless in both cases. I am sure of one person who failed the calc class and about 20% failed the stats class.

Just remember; math is not human but humans are. Plenty of mathmeticians have made plenty of mistakes in plenty of published theories. So your little test issue there is rather small.

The instructor related some AP calc test a student of his had to take. IT was 90 questions with 2 hours to do it and these were not easy problems or short ones. So the only real answer was to memorize the test. Well - what does that really learn you?

[MikeCT]

Originally posted by vash


whatever was fast and efficient.

If that is what the test is about then it is different then a pre-cal class.

[MikeCT]

Maybe the problem is I am not challenged by the courses I am taking.

Instead of posting a 3rd time....

I think my problem is with the attitude of expecting failure. People asking about partial credit is like they have already given up on learning the material. It's not the actual partial credit given but that there is an attitude that students can fall back on it instead of striving for excellence.

[masraum]

MikeCT you seem to be looking at the world from an idealistic perspective. That's not real life. PreCalc is nothing. Come back and talk to us when you are in Diff Equ. I'm guessing that the PE (professional engineer, I think) test that Vash mentioned is quite different than precalc tests, and probably much more important.

You may feel like you know everything now and you can get every problem perfect every time and everyone else should be able to as well, but it's not always going to be like that.

Grades and schooling and the way that they relate to life are much different now than they once were. Grades certainly can be very important these days.

[tobster1911]

My take when I was in school was this.

You are there to learn, not to be perfect. If you got a test back and every single problem was given zero credit without any explanation you would not learn from your mistakes.

If on the other hand you get that same test back with partial credit for each problem, but not 100% on any of them, you would be able to see exactly where you went wrong on each problem. You could learn from your mistakes and hopefully not make them again.

School is about learning....

my $0.02

[MikeCT]

This past spring semester I had failed an online film class because I had made an error emailing the final paper, the teacher never recived my paper. I worked night and day for a few days writing this film analysis and recieved no credit. I had asked the professor about getting credit for the paper and explained what had hapened, he told me he could not help me. I failed a course because of a small error and it was my fault. Just like a math problem on a test a small error is a failure. If a surgeon makes an error some one can die. Mistakes are not allowed. Why should there be exceptions for other subjects?

[bryanthompson]

I think you might be holding professors to impossible standards. If a professor is as strict as you would like, so many of his students would fail that the prof would look like he wasn't doing a good job of teaching.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

In my organic chemistry class you could be right on 90% through a 20-step synthesis, but if step 18 was incorrect, you got no credit at all.

Life is harsh, your reality growing up should take that into account. We'd have a stronger nation today without partial credit. But forget about partial credit, we've got bigger problems. Heck, we live in a country whose president thinks ID should be taught in science classes, so basically our education system is the laughing stock of the world (which is almost certainly flat, looks that way from space anyway.)

[ae1969]

Originally posted by MikeCT
This past spring semester I had failed an online film class because I had made an error emailing the final paper, the teacher never recived my paper. I worked night and day for a few days writing this film analysis and recieved no credit. I had asked the professor about getting credit for the paper and explained what had hapened, he told me he could not help me. I failed a course because of a small error and it was my fault. Just like a math problem on a test a small error is a failure. If a surgeon makes an error some one can die. Mistakes are not allowed. Why should there be exceptions for other subjects?

Uhmmmm

You receive partial marks/credit on 99% of courses.....

You forgot to hand in an assignment and you are equating that to answering a question half way?

ANytime you write a paper you are receiving a partial credit unless you achieve 100%........Anytime you solve a 30 point Engineering problem but run out of time you receive partial credit.......... You are preparing a precipitate in Organic Chem lab and get only 70% yield when 90% is required you get a partial credit.

P.S Oh and during surgery you still will get partial credit if you are only able to canulize the one ureter but punctured the kidney by accident........... OOPS was that my inner voice speaking out loud.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by bryanthompson
I think you might be holding professors to impossible standards. If a professor is as strict as you would like, so many of his students would fail that the prof would look like he wasn't doing a good job of teaching.

or he'd being doing is job, not just babysitting for a bunch of whiny kids.

My Genetics professor was in his first year back after 3 years of hiatus after failing over half his class. Our first test... 70% of the class got a C. it was a take-home test, we had 2 days to do it.

[cantdrv55]

sohcahtoa

That's the only thing I remember about Trig but I did ace the class. This was back when graphing calculators did not exist. And yes, partial credit was given and appreciated.

[MikeCT]

I need more practice in persuassive writing.

[mikester]

Originally posted by MikeCT
Maybe the problem is I am not challenged by the courses I am taking.

Instead of posting a 3rd time....

I think my problem is with the attitude of expecting failure. People asking about partial credit is like they have already given up on learning the material. It's not the actual partial credit given but that there is an attitude that students can fall back on it instead of striving for excellence.

In all fairness - kids or adults who ask that question have figured something out that you clearly have not and seriously need to.

They want to know what the goal is.

In every endeavor of your life you must first set a goal to attain. Granted - maybe your goal is a solid 100% and if so - have fun. The rest of us will be happy with upwards of 90% or so, we'll get an "A" too and some fun at the beach too.

Pick your poison.

There is a balance in making a class too hard and too easy. Too hard and you discourage folks from the learning process and too easy and you neglect the learning process. Equilibrium is attainable, kids who ask the question "is there partial credit" may simply want to know if they will get that credit even though they make an addition error or something extremely simple.

In the higher maths it is very easy to make a simple addition error but have the concepts down correctly. Which is more important in that environment?

If a student who clearly understands the concepts but simply makes a random error causing the final answer to be wrong should be failed for that...that I believe discourages the learning process. Now; I do think that partial credit should be less than 50% of the full credit for that problem and if there is more than one of these errors then all bets are off. But that's just my opinion on the whole thing.

If an instructor told me there was no partial credit - I would simply strive not to make those mistakes of course.

While our country might be stronger if we expected perfection we would also be setting ourselves up for disappointment as perfection is not attainable in any subject.

[bryanthompson]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
or he'd being doing is job, not just babysitting for a bunch of whiny kids.

I don't disagree with that. I was pointing out how it is in many cases, not how it should be.