Weak perspective, perhaps. It would be like quoting driving deaths, and saying, "There were X hundred thousand lives lost on asphalt roads." "Why drive on asphalt - I just don't get it."

Not really. Though you'd be right if I was really arguing that we shouldn't ride bikes.

Again, just trying to put these numbers against other numbers to see if it's really as big a problem as we make it out to be. Perspective.

- Skip

More from the CDC article:

Just taken from my desk. Her sitting in her chair like that cracked me up for some reason.

I guess some of you will see a dangerous killer. I see & know a sweet and happy companion.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1128904253.jpg

This is great. I say someone's logic blows & that's a personal attack. They say my dog should be extirminated & that is a personal opinion.

Let's just cut to the chase JYL, you have yet to post ANY meaningful or accurate statistics to show my dog to be any more dangerous than many other breeds. Yet in your steel trap brain you have it figured out. This is simple. In America, as long as MY DOG doesn't act out of line I don't see the problem.

Left wing do-gooders who want to save everyone from folks not of the same level of lofty thinking as they, have tried this cr*p for years, from prohibition to every other eeeevil they percieve to be dangerous. The bottom line is this, if MY dog doesn't do anything wrong then there is no problem. As for you & people like you. I guess your Momma neglected to tell you, "minding your own business is a full time job."

If this concept works for you then maybe you can set up the neighborhood snitch squad to find out who might be engaging in unacceptable sex.

PS One of the things that showed me just how dangerous my dog is, is this. I give him a pig ear to chew on. Once he gets going I kneel down & take it from him, WITH MY TEETH. He sits & waits for me to give it back. As Skip said about his dog, my dog is the least likely dog I've ever owned to nip, bite, bark or show any sign of aggression towards people. Good looking dog Skip.

Didn't know you went that way Vic. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

This illustrates the issue of whether a higher risk from a given group of people or things justifies precautionary measures directed at that group, or whether we need to prove higher risk from each particular, individual member of that group.

Think about persons from Muslim countries seeking to enter the US. In most cases, there is no evidence to show that a particular, individual person poses a threat. Yet we have no problem with controlling entry of all such persons, because we believe there is a higher risk from the group as a whole.

Or think about felons who wish to purchase guns. In some cases, there is no evidence to show that a particular, individual felon poses a threat (e.g. the ones convicted of non-violent crimes, tax evasion or mail fraud or etc). Yet we have no problem with prohibiting all such persons from purchasing guns.

In a perfect world, we'd investigate each individual visa-seeker, felon, dog, etc and take action if and only if a threat was proven for that particular individual. But as a practical matter we don't have the resources to do that. For example, San Francisco only has about 9 animal control officers (as of 1998).

I think pit bull owners who take what I would describe as a "stone-walling" approach - pit bulls are no more dangerous than any other breed, the data showing 4-8X more fatal attacks by pit bulls vs other breeds is false, as long as MY DOG behaves then there is no problem - are taking the wrong approach. "Wrong" in the practical sense that it is not the best way to head off unreasonable legislation directed at the breed.

I think that pit bull owners groups should instead be proposing reasonable legislation to control irresponsible breeding, ownership and handling of these (and other) dog breeds. This, in my opinion, is the better way of heading off a "breed ban" or other unreasonable laws. You guys are a tiny minority of the public and there is no constitutional right to own a pit bull (or any other dog), so stone-walling isn't, IMHO, the best strategy.

John- The CDC article clearly admits it's conclusions could be wrong and that it is in fact possible that other breeds may cause more fatalities. The CDC article also clearly states that breed specific legislation is not the fix.

I don't know if you meant it, but it sounds like you're accusing us of ignoring the evidence. I say the evidence is at best inconclusive - more so considering my life-time experience & knowledge of the breed.

I don't think we're stone walling. I think we're fighting an unjustified, media driven, emotion base attack. Again, the goal of many isn't anything as simple as "reasonable" legislation. They want to take our dogs and kill them - BASED ON INACCURATE/INCOMPLETE DATA.

-Skip

What are you responsible Pit owners doing to turn the tide? You can't leave it to the thug owners; the breed will be banned for sure that way.

I read the CDC report as acknowledging that its data may not be precisely accurate, but as nonetheless concluding:

"despite these limitations and concerns, the data indicates that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of the dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (page 4)

I agree the CDC report does not recommend breed-specific legislation and says that dog bites are a bigger problem than dog fatalities.

Again, the thing I've been curious about is how pit bull owners and owners' groups are responding to the negative perception of the breed and the calls for restrictions on these dogs.

Reports of dogs killing people, especially small children, are gruesome and can easily overcome any sympathy the general public has for pit bull owners. I'd think some communities are just one well-publicized killing away from enacting laws that would restrict pit bull ownership. [Edit: I'm not saying this is fair or just, I'm saying this is the reality of the situation.] Here in the Bay Area this year, a young boy was killed in his own home by his family's two pit bulls. The dogs appeared to be well loved pets, neighbors would kiss them on the forehead, etc etc. But the mother left the boy at home with the dogs and to the surprise of everyone he was killed. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/04/MNGCUD3O661.DTL The article lists other local incidents in which dogs have recently mauled or killed people (all but one involved dogs identified as pit bulls). [Edit: this is the type of incident that drove SB 861 and the current momentum toward local regulations here in the Bay Area (discussed earlier).]

Given this, I just don't think the pit bull lovers on this thread are taking the most effective stance. To simply say "my dog is a lover, there's nothing we can do about bad dogs/owners, really pit bulls are no more dangerous than goldens or poodles, animal control is mis-identifying the dogs as pit bulls when they're really labs, you're more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a pit bull" may seem like the "right" stance to you guys, but I doubt it is the most "effective" way to head off the kind of unreasonable/bad legislation that you're not going to like.

Maybe we're beating this topic to death. Again, I'm not particularly "against" your dogs - I'm just thinking you're not taking the best approach to fight unreasonable legislation.

JYL said:
"Again, the thing I've been curious about is how pit bull owners and owners' groups are responding to the negative perception of the breed and the calls for restrictions on these dogs."

I went down to the hood today & shot 3 thugs with pit bulls on chains. Anybody want to adopt a dog?

I had missed that youwere from the bay area. Now I understand. Muslims good. Pit bulls bad. No more need be said.

Boy critical after three pit bulls attack
Cary, Illinois
November 7, 2005 - 10:59AM

A 10-year-old boy is in a critical condition after three pit bulls escaped from a US home and went on a rampage, authorities in Illinois say.

The dogs, who then attacked another six people, were later shot dead by police.

No charges had been filed today, but McHenry County Sheriff Keith Nygren said the location was being treated as a crime scene.

Neighbours said the attacks started late yesterday when children going door-to-door for a fundraiser arrived at the home of Scott Sword, 41, who owned the dogs.

"We had music playing, and I heard this bizarre sound," said Debby Rivera, who lives three houses away.

"I looked out the window, and I saw a young boy. The dogs were just jumping on him."

"The screams were horrible," she said. The dogs were "relentless, like they were possessed".

The pit bulls attacked the two children, and when the dogs' owner tried to stop them, the dogs turned on him and bit off his thumb, Nygren said.

The boy's father also tried to protect his son and was attacked. The dogs went after another neighbour as well.

"The scene sprawled over a couple blocks, it was a very chaotic scene," said Lt Michael Douglas of the Cary Fire Protection District.

Residents threw rocks at the dogs and honked car horns to try to distract them from attacking.

Police later arrived and shot the animals.

Jim Malone said he and a neighbour tried to beat the dogs back with baseball bats.

"He'd hit them, they'd run, and they'd come back," Malone said. "This went on for 15 minutes."

The boy who was attacked was hospitalised and remained in a critical condition today.

His friend, also 10, was in a serious condition.

- AP

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131353214.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131355810.jpg left over gauze was stuck to the sutres

Here are photographs of my hand and left thigh 14 days after an unprovoked attack by a pitbull puppy that was unleashed. This incident cost me $1500.00 out of pocket and 5 hours in the ER.

This is what happened. I was getting ready to leave to go downtown to meet some friends. My 10 year old Sheltland Sheepdog Toki preceeded me out my front door to do his business in the front yard. He was taking a pee when he was attacked.

I see these two guys walking across the street with a tan pitbull and I noticed that it was not on a leash. In that instant I kind of knewwhat was about ready to happen when I lept off my porch and with two giant strides got to Toki but not quite in time for this pitbull to come from across the street to grab Toki by his neck while I was trying to pick Toki up. I was picking up both Toki and this pitbull when Toki gave out a blood curdling shriek of a yelp, instinctively I reached into this pitbull's mouth to save my dog. He was trying to get a grip of Toki's neck but the amount of fur around his neck saved his life.

The pitbull broke off his grip around Toki and snapped down on my finger and after releasing my hand, snapped down onto my left thigh, and bit through my denim jeans to leave his upper and lower canine teeth imprints where the jeans tore through leaving the triangular bruises they eventually scabbed over. My pinky finger was almost torn off requiring 7 stitches and was the diameter of my thumb for the next three weeks. The two black guys with the pitbull just walked off as I tried to confront them while calling for the police. One of the guys response was "It's only a dog bite and he's had his shots". At that moment I was going into shock from the blood loss. I didn't have my sidearm on me or I would have wasted these two guys and the dog. Suffice to say they haven't ever been seen again in the neighboorhood or were they ever apprehended.

This incident has me on guard anytime I am walking my dogs and there is a pitbull around even on a leash. I will avoid getting too close to them with my dogs as I know what kind of damage they can inflict unprovoked.

I've also witness another horrific unprovoked attack when a leashed pitbull just turned on a woman's smaller dog also leashed, where it just picked it up by the neck and shook it to death like a rag doll. That pit was destroyed.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131356186.jpg Four months later and perhaps half mobility of the finger joint. Canine imprint scars on my thigh still.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131356527.jpg


This is Toki, his passion is riding with me in the back of the 911 with the rear seats folded down and he can see out while laying down on the seat flat seat backs.

I actually had a very interesting conversation with 2 very prominent vets in Lee County. Married couple, 2 different practices, at my house for a dinner party.

I asked them what there top three worst behaved dogs were. They used the word "control freaks".

Top of the list was a Rotweiller, said they were very unpredictble. No warning as to there anger or intent to bite. One moment there content, the next they are latched to your arm. Unfriendly to people and other animals alike. Dont like to be stared down or looked in the eyes. They would ban them from there practice if they could.

Second was the Chow. Little or no warning of anger. Horrible with kids. But atleast they have little strength and tons of hiar to pull around.

Third, Shar Pei. Do not like to be handle. Bite without warning and are very strong. Do not like other animals. Very friendly with kids though.


I "was" interested in getting a Shar Pei and thats what sparked the whole converstaion.

So I asked where they rank Pitbulls on this list and they said they would take a Pit over there top 20 worst dogs any day. Said they were easy to handle, friendly with kids, and will definelty let you know before they bite you. There only misgiving was that they do not get along well with other dogs that are dominant. Described it as to Rosters in the Hen house.

Keep in mind this couple does not own a pitbull. They own a Border Collie and a cat.

You "shot" 3 thugs? If you did, I thank you.

Our dog thinks he's a bad-ass Pitt Bull. ;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131412444.jpg

Pitbulls are the most worthless dogs ever. You never see upper class america sporting these dogs around town. I wouldn't hesitate putting a bullet in one if it even started looking at me or my dog wrong.

Great looking dog! Glad you saved him from the Pit.

I know this is an old thread but as far as dog intelligence goes Boxer is not in the top 10:

Ranks 1 to 10
Brightest Dogs

Understanding of New Commands: Less than 5 repetitions.

Obey First Command: 95% of the time or better.

Rank Breed
1 Border Collie
2 Poodle
3 German Shepherd
4 Golden Retriever
5 Doberman Pinscher
6 Shetland Sheepdog
7 Labrador Retriever
8 Papillon
9 Rottweiler
10 Australian Cattle Dog

I have a Golden, by the way.