Ok folks here you have it. This gentleman is a striking example of what has happened to America. He actually believes the guy tightening the lug nuts on your rental Lumina should make $27 an hour. He not only believes it but is comfortable defending it as a practice in public.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but either way I rest my case.

I, too heard that Delphi wanted to lower the pay to around 15.00/hour.
It is true that most of the hourly UAW employees make around 25-27.00/hour. Throw in a bit of OT and these guys can easily make 80-100,000 a year.
Back in the 70's, our employees made the same per hour as GM. As the ecomony here in Michigan started sucking, ours made consessions and allowed pay freezes to keep their jobs. GM did not and in fact demanded more pay each year even as the sales tanked.
Night all,

Lendaddy & others,

I am NOT saying that every Factory worker should make $27/hr.My point is that it is not JUST the union involved in the cost for which are negotiated into some contracts & agreed to by the Company management.And NO the less skilled labor SHOULD be paid accordingly.My problem with crying that is is the unions fault exclusively!If you look at the shareholders annual report of most companies closely,executive & upper/mid managment salaries,benefits has far out paced the workers who actually make the products.For example,A.G. Lafley(CEO) of P&G was paid $2.8 million in salary,awarded close to 25,000 stock options @ exercise price of like $12/share(value of almost 1.4 million @ todays share value of $56/share),and had some $1.8 million put in his retirement account.So his total compensation for the 04-05 fiscal year was around $6 million for the year.If the stock value goes up(historically about 6-7%) that increases in value also.I know he works hard & oversees a large & getting larger company for which he is paid hansomely!If just seems that it is always the liitle guys that end up taking the hit when things go bad.The execs,upper management have many other options that are not available to us,the factory stiffs.I myself have 15 yrs with my company,can & do run every packaging line on the floor,mechanical skills(only 1 other on my work team)that I use daily and also have machining skills but don't use that often due to subbing these type of thing out usually.I am currently a Team Leader which entails all admin function to my team,plus anything that happens and requires any or all of the above skills.

SO YES,I FEEL I AM WORTH EVERYBIT OF THE $23/hr I AM PAID!
I do more on a daily basis of making this company $$$$ than just about any of the managers above me that I report to that DON'T HAVE A CLUE,about how things work or what it takes to make a bar of soap(Yes, I work @ a soap plant).These guys pull down in excess of $100K and work only 40 hrs/week tops.

So Lendaddy,I don't know what case you made except that a guy tightening lug nuts on a rental Lumina isn't worth $27/hr,which I would agree whole heartedly.But those are NOT the people I refer to.GM & Delphi have done this to themselves with the help of their unions.But a blanket statement that factory stiff aren't worth decent $$$ is very short sighted in my opinion.

Oh HAHA,you are totally correct about GM's LEGACY COSTS! That one line item is what may eventually put GM under.

Chris

good post

Chris? So, you're the reason my bars of bath soap get smaller & smaller? Used to be 5 oz. bars..then 4.5, now 3.75? Pretty soon, I might as well go to motels to pick up my shower soap...the smaller the bar, the harder is is to hold onto...I'm with you! It's management decisions on bar size, so they translate smaller into more profit? I'd pay more for bigger bars, but I'm one of those who can pick up a basketball with one hand... Yeah, I know...P&G leadership listens to you about as much as they would to me. Also, I miss the scent of Lifebouy!

Business is simple. It is not so much of "how much" you do, but rather how much what you do is worth to the company's bottom line. If the work that you produce is worth as much or more than you are paid, you will always be employed. If you are paid too little, you will be hired away by another company due to your value. When you require more pay than you produce in income to the company...you will not be employed. It is simple and works almost perfectly until you involve unions. It is a bit more complicated with union employees because they must be considered as a whole ...so if the majority/unit does not produce more value than they cost...all must go.

Of course managers make more money than rank and file employees....and of course they probably do not know how to make soap. That is not their job. If they were doing the work of the hourly employees, they would be cheating the company and shareholders. They are paid too much to make soap when they can find plenty of folks to do that for much less money than they are paid. Any manager that can keep a company making a profit in spite of a union workforce deserves every penny they are paid. They keep your company out of bankruptcy.

pwd72s & fintstone,

Know what you mean about smallers sizes/same price,that is how most are increasing profits now.Also adding lower cost fillers & such to maximize profit.
Suprised you know that our bar soap used to weigh 5oz., now 4.5oz.Very observant!
Lifeboy was before my time.We currently make Zest,Olay,Safeguard,Camay with others on the way soon.We are taking on Colgate production as a contract manufacture in Dec.Feel bad for the employees in KS City where are closing plant.This is what we went through 3 yrs ago when P&G sold us,lock,stock & barrel to the Canadians that own the plant now.One of the Canadian owners just sold his share for about $11 million to a investment firm that buys & hopefully expands to keep us here.He didn't have to put up any $$$$ when they bought us.Pretty good return,yes?
We are the largest bar soap plant in the world with yearly production of about 4 million cases!

And you are correct that P&G never would listen to suggestions from the peons on how to make things better.That's what they paid the enguneers $150K/yr to do!About 14 of them just for our plant before they sold us.Then the mechanics & machinist that actually worked the floor would modify to do what it should have done in the first place!!!!!

Oh well,such is life! Just kind of rubs me the wrong way that some feel blue collar workers are not worth a decent wage.Thats why I'm doing everything in my power to see my kids go to college so they at least have a shot at not being degraded for being blue collar.One of the reasons I bought my Porsche was to enjoy working on it!I can use my brain very well,But like working with my hands even more!Nothing like the feeling of firing up that rebuilt motor/trans etc.,that you did yourself!Almost anyone can whip out there checkbook & buy/pay to have stuff done or a whole car for that matter.Personally would not,but thats me!

Fintstone,my point about the managers not knowing how to make the soap,didn't mean they should actually work the lines.but that they only seem to be protecting THEIR existance by pilling paper work & some system or another on the rank & file that doesn't really add any value to what we do.Sometimes makes it harder!!If they don't at least understand the process,how can they make knowledgable decisions on what is important or not.Very frustrating at times to say the least.

Chris

First of all, it depends on how you define "decent wage." $27 per hour is more than just a "decent wage." Of course engineers would expect to make significantly more than a person who did not spend 5-10 years in college in one of the toughest curriculums possible. Not only does the non-graduate get the extra working years, but they did not have to pay for the education. If the salaries were the same, only a fool would ever go to the effort.

To look at it another way, would you be comfortable if everyone else from the cook at McDonalds to the cashier at the grocery store made the same $20+ per hour and passed the cost on to you? Would you buy the $25 union burger or would you cross the street for a $2 burger at Burger King...knowing McDonalds would soon go bankrupt?

Of course union members will accept as much pay as the union thugs can negotiate....but once again, the expectations of long term employment are certainly effected once they cause the goods they manufacture to be priced where they cannot compete with other similar products. Remember, the folks who have to buy those union products typically do not have the same union wages.

Yes, the union has been putting a strain on the company, but the executives don't seem to be afraid of bleeding the company either.

From an article on the bankruptcy:

The rest of the article is here:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ft/051009/fto100920051551062426.html?.v=1

Of course the people being "screwed over" the worst, by both the unionized workers and the executives, are the shareholders.

DPH is about 83% institutional owned; you know these "shareholders" couldn't care less since they own DPH with "other people's money." Did you see the way some of the big analyst firms "upgraded" DPH last week? Crooks! If you own a mutual fund, check and see if they owned any DPH shares last week. If they did, get your money out of their hands immediately.

Competentone,
you seem to understand my point that managment still will take "their"cut of the pie,as large as they can stuff in their mouth" even when things are going down the tubes.

fintstone,
You still think that I am saying everyone should be payed union scales,cooks,cashiers etc.Please reread my posts.My point remains that when things go bad,it is the workers that take the hit in the end.Manufacturing base in U.S. has shrunk in last 20 yrs mainly due to corporate greed of ever increasing profits to justify ever increasing executive/management compensation.I make $23/hr,pay $120 every check for health insurance,which by the way is a very minimal plan,FED,SS,STATE,LOCAL taxes,then try to fund my 401K so I might be able to retire by the time I'm 65 or so.I send my kids to public school & try to give them a better life than I had,but am not rich from making my $23/hr.Sometimes I wonder if people are blind to the fact that cost of living raises are common to just about everyone.Where I work,we have not had ANY increase going on 5 yrs.When & how much was your last raise?Not complaining,but you know the old row about "walking a mile in someone else's shoes" don't ya!Even at what I make we live a very modest life,put most of any extra money in investments or our home.

On a side about enguneers,most I have dealt with in our plant could use a few years in the real world to enlighten them on how things work and perform.Just because your sliderule says it will work,doesn't always match reality!

Chris

No, I am not saying that at all. I am just trying to point out how high wages make your products...or anyone's...less competitive in the marketplace. If after nonlabor costs (materials, facilities, etc), a person's work only makes the company $20 each hour he works, if his salary is $27...the company will soon be bankrupt.

Companies that are forced to deal with unions are not allowed the natural wage-setting effect of supply and demand...and as thus, are typically out-of-kilter with the actual value of the work performed. .. hence the example of the burger guy making $27 per hour and selling $25 burgers. He would not be able to sell them at that price and soon his restraurant would have to close. But I guess the big paycheck would be good while it lasted.

No one faults you or anyone else for making as much money as you possibly can. You may well have special skills, I don't know. The point is that labor is generally not worth $27 (Delphi)per hour and companies that pay that much for labor are typically not able to compete very long when the same labor can be had for less than half that elsewhere in the US and a fraction of that in other countries. Regardless of how much you resent the large incomes of management, it is generally just a drop in the bucket compared to the rank and file of a large company....sheerly because of numbers.

The manufacturing base has shrunk because of union wages...and little else. Companies exist to make a profit..not provide jobs or charity. As long as they make a profit, they continue to exist. When they do not, they are either moved or restructured so that they can make a profit...or closed. It is simple as that. Apparently Delphi wages exceed their revenues.

The Delphi $27 per hour equals over $56000 per year. Pretty darned good for a 40 hr week. Most folks I know work at least 60 hrs per week. At that rate, they would make about over $98000 at Delphi (if over 40 hrs per week are time and 1/2). Many salaried college graduates that I know with 20 years experience make much less than $56000 and work at least 60 hrs per week. In fact, most folks I know with graduate degrees and PhDs make less than the $98k.

I agree that taxes take a huge bite from your paycheck (and everyone else's). You can thank your union for that too. They are first in line to send your union dues to help elect political representatives from the party of more government and higher taxes.

My company supplies quite a bit of workholding to their manufacturing facilities. We, along with many machine dealers have actually stopped selling them new product as a result of Chapter 11 looming. Or we adjust our terms to get cash up front.....but as many suppliers know....that's a tough thing to do with a company like Delphi.

Lets wait to see what happens in the next year. I hope the US makes the right decision....to begin protecting all these American manufacturers. If not....we're all in for one big kick in the pants!!!

The company I work for (special machine design and build), quit quoting jobs for Delphi Sandusky years ago as their "quote, requote, requote" policy was just getting ridiculous. These guys wanted the world but would not pay for it. We actually used to have to build their machines such that a lazy employee could not easily sabotage it. These bone head operators would get their machine to fault then sit and do nothing as they waited for a proper union repairman to come and clear the fault. Unbelievable!!!

Chris,

Your attitude is classic. I mean that your thoughts are common among the rank and file everycompany USA. "Maybe if the CEO didn't get that big raise we have X or Y".

The fact is: No you couldn't. You simply are unable to think in scale and hence your outlook is flawed. P&G has what...100k employees or so? So that means if the CEO made $0 instead of $6m a year you could each get a $60 a YEAR raise!!!1 Whooo Hoooo Doggies!

Now keep in mind how you guys ***** about his compensation and its effects on the bottom line yet don't see why the "stiffs" can't get a $0.78 cost of living raise. This works out to: $165,000,000 + shared taxes and Medicare of $9,900,000 for a grand total of 175 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!

Suddenly the CEO's salary seems unimportant and miniscule huh? Guess why.....because it is.

Edit: Or you can look at it this way....

P& G can pay a very high salary in an attempt to court a top CEO to steer their multi billion dollar corporation, OR they can give you guys a $0.03 an hour raise. You read that right "Three cents an hour".

Face it - you just like dropping it...

Be careful with that, it's called preferential treatment and they(lawyers) may come back at you for that money. It happened to us:(

GM stock falling...Monday morning. Pretty predictable...

It's called negotiating terms. And we do it all the time. No way am I going to expose $50K to a company that may or not be able to pay. In our line of business, custom designed fixtures, you have to negotiate terms. I understand some cases you can't by law....but it ours it's fine as far as we understand it.

Nice part is, anything ordered after Chapter 11 is guaranteed to be paid! :D We have a $50K job right now that is pending.....guess we'll see what happens.

We thought we were in the clear as welll, so be careful that's all I'm saying.

Private (non public utilities) unions are experiences huge mmembership losses, and IMO they are headed for exticntion. At one time, they had a true purpose, but now........

I was an IAM machinist at Boeing at one time.