The anti Lexus crowd

[HardDrive]

Its always the same comment, "Lexus is alright, but its really just a dressed up Toyota." As if being a dressed up Toyota is a bad thing....

WTF?

Better to drive a dolled up Toyota rather than some Krautkart that spends half the time at the dealership. Spare me the speach, I love my Porsche, and I would certainly consider a 5 series BMW as my next daily driver. But I have no illusions that its going to be anywhere near a Lexus in terms of quality.

And how about that new IS350? 4 door that can keep up with an M-3 coupe for at least 10k less.

Lexus does not inspire passion the way BMW does, but some objectivity would be nice....

[fintstone]

A Lexus is one fine automobile! You cannot beat one for a daily driver or for a long road trip. Plenty of power, luxurious interior, decent gas mileage, and outstanding reliability.

[ErVikingo]

I've owned a GS400 (from new) since 1999. Awesome car, stupidly fast, its so reliable its boring, awesome stereo, ...

Boring why? its needs nothing. Want to get fancy, chip it (I did!) and its got even faster....

It has 60K miles and has never needed anything replaced except for oil, filter, tires. Beware though of high recurring maintenance charges by Lexus dealership.

Also, you get a loaner should you have a problem or service appointement with it. What else could you ask for? Perhaps a lower price...

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I see nothing wrong with Lexus, other than the fact that I can't afford one.

[kaisen]

"Lexus is alright, but its really just a dressed up Toyota."

Somewhat true for the ES line. There were times it seemed to be only a fancier Camry. The LX series is absolutely just a fancy LandCruiser and makes no bones about it. The RX shares quite a bit with the Highlander. The IS, LS, and GS are specific to Lexus.

The question is pointless. What automaker DOESN'T do this?

Infiniti sure does: G35=350Z, I35=Maxima, FX=Murano
Cadillac: Escalade=Yukon/Tahoe. ESV=Sub, EXT=Avalanche, XLR=Vette, Cimmaron=Cavalier.

Lexus has drawn fire for producing soul-less automobiles. I personally find that to be true. I wouldn't own one, they don't excite me. The new GS comes the closest, but still has more compelling competitors.

E

[RallyJon]

Lexus has drawn fire for producing soul-less automobiles.

Exactly. I've never heard anyone criticize a Lexus for being a dressed up Toyota. Criticizing it for being a Japanese Buick, on the other hand...

[wilke3169]

Wife drives a very used LS 400. fantastic car.
Maybe the people making these comments are angry in their Jaguars when they try to get in a Taurus at the mall.

[Z-man]

As a Benz employee (MBUSA corp. HQ), I have a different perspective on Lexus.

When they first came out, their idea was "Let's build a Mercedes Benz and sell it for less money." And this they did. Sold well. But after a while, the price difference was not as great - it was even.

Unfortunately, Benz hit a reliability issue a few years back, and we're still recovering from the market perception!

The folks at Lexus are great copy-cats - for starters, they ripped apart a few Benzes before designing their LS! When the S420 got a bump in displacement and became the S430, guess what, the LS400 was upgraded to an LS430! And when they came out with the new SC with the retractable top, their ads were stating how it's the best thing since sliced bread! Guess what? The Benz SLK has had a retractable top since it's inception around 1996-1997. And, for the record, the Mitsu 300 Spyder had a similar retractable top a few years before the SLK.

I don't dispute that Lexus makes good cars - actually, they make good copies of good cars. That's my biggest gripe. Get your own design team and innovative engineers to come up with unique stuff - don't just rip off the competition.

Rant over,
-Z-man.

[legion]

I don't like Lexi.

1) They ARE dressed up Toyotas...just like Jaguars are dressed up Fords...and Acuras are dressed up Hondas...and Infinities are dressed up Nissans. They do share components.

2) Just as Z-man said, they are copies of MBs. Look at the first Lexus (was it an LS?), look at the S-class that year. Now keep marching forward in time. You will find that when the S class changes, the LS changes 1-2 years later...to identical styling.

3) For being copies of such great cars, they are amazingly uninspired. Some people like uninspired, reliable cars. That's fine. I don't. I don't like anything from Honda (S2000 excepted), Toyota, Nissan (350Z excepted), Daewoo, Kia, or anything French for the same reason.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Sorry, the fact that you like the S2000 and the 350Z makes me seriously question your automotive taste. I've driven both and despise them equally.

I'd rather own a LeCar.

re: Toyota ripping apart Benzes. If you think that this sort of thing doesn't happen at every automaker (and they're not just tearing apart Benzes--they're looking at their competitors' offerings), you're fooling yourself.

[legion]

I don't particularly like the S2000 or the 350Z, I just don't dislike them. I haven't driven either, but I'm willing to withhold judgement until I do.

[KNS]

You have to hand it to the Japanese, they picked up on the American desire to own the coveted luxury boat. BMW figured this out 20 years ago when they realized that we would rather buy a BMW luxury car than a BMW drivers car (not us here on this board but you know what I mean).

The Japanese saw the big profit margins and said "Hey, what are we waiting for?". In Japan, there is no such thing as an Acura or Lexus. They buy the same car over there but with the Toyota or Honda badge on it - and probably pay less for it too.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by BlueSkyJaunte
re: Toyota ripping apart Benzes. If you think that this sort of thing doesn't happen at every automaker (and they're not just tearing apart Benzes--they're looking at their competitors' offerings), you're fooling yourself.

Agreed - all car makers 'look under the hood' of their competitors. However, in the case of Lexus, it wasn't just to see how they do it - it was to see how it can be copied.

BTW: You'd be very surprised how much information is exchanged between the German car companies - and I'm not just talking about a loosing joined partnership like VW / Audi. It is far different there - Porsche, Benz, VW, Audi - they all share information - for the benefit of all, it seems.

-Z-man.

[yellowline]

As the market moves towards a point where nearly every car is well built, what does Lexus have to offer that distinguishes itself? Not the driving dynamics of the BMW, the Old World luxury of Jag or MB, the safety of Volvo, the AWD and technical skill of the Audi, nor the brashness of a Cadillac. Just a soulless lump of metal that promises to go for a long time. Maybe the IS is sporty and disproves that, but nothing else from Lexus really goes against what I just said.

Nevertheless the "red and black circles describe everything about a car" crowd will continue to snatch them up.

[Jims5543]

I dislike Lexus for the same reason I dislike H-2's. They are the ultimate posseur status symbol. Escalades and (insert any high prices SUV here) are right there with them.

I remember in my younger more impressionable years, an uncle bought a Lexus. He was so proud of it, he drove it to Florida instead of flying to show it off. I came to the same function in a Jaguar knowing what he was up to. You could see his eyes get big when it pulled into the parking lot and realized it was his 24 year old nephew driving. What he didn't know is a client of our company owned a used car lot and let me borrow the Jag for the weekend. This same client was trying to get me to buy his Mazerati Bi-Turbo it came with a spare car too. I kick myself for passing on that one.

I have never liked Toyota cars or Lexus cars. The only Toyota I like is their truck line. Camry's bore me and the coparable Lexus line is the same. I have owned Hondas over the years, awesome, boring cars. Great if you are looking for a rpoblem free ride and do not care what you drive.

Legion - I have Autocrossed a S2000, I traded rides with with owner so he could take my RX-7 for a spin. The S2000 handles amazingly well I would compare it to an RX-8. It is very tossable, once you trust it. The sheer lack of torque and power below 4000 RPM's makes for a difficult car to go fast in. You have tyo rev the piss out of it to make it move. I thought I had taken off in 3rd gear in that S2000, it just does not want to move.

[89911]

No beef with the automobile, just tremendously boring. I can't see somebody getting exiting about buying one. Maybe the little sports car they have is kind of neat. I would bet if someone did the demographics of who actually buys these, they would be basically the same person, white, 40-60, professional, who doesn't want to be bothered with anything going wrong with his car, and doesn't want a MB.

[wludavid]

Originally posted by KNS
You have to hand it to the Japanese, they picked up on the American desire to own the coveted luxury boat. BMW figured this out 20 years ago when they realized that we would rather buy a BMW luxury car than a BMW drivers car (not us here on this board but you know what I mean).

BMW, Toyota and Honda all started figuring this out at the same time. You used to could get a 3-series with a 4cyl and cloth seats, but now they just bring in the luxo-versions of everything. Toyota and Honda both introduced their new brands in the late 80s and have been doing the same thing.

Originally posted by yellowline
As the market moves towards a point where nearly every car is well built, what does Lexus have to offer that distinguishes itself? Not the driving dynamics of the BMW, the Old World luxury of Jag or MB, the safety of Volvo, the AWD and technical skill of the Audi, nor the brashness of a Cadillac. Just a soulless lump of metal that promises to go for a long time. Maybe the IS is sporty and disproves that, but nothing else from Lexus really goes against what I just said.

Nevertheless the "red and black circles describe everything about a car" crowd will continue to snatch them up.

No matter how reliable the other cars become, Toyota and Honda will be out front. For those who want to maximize reliability, they will be the cars to own. Most people don't realize cars can have souls. FWIW, I'm letting my CR subscription run out this year. Their car reviews pissed me off one too many times.

[kaisen]

Innovation means taking a chance that it will take a couple attempts to get it right. It's part of evolution. Copying a mature and stable technology almost guarantees reliability.

Are we were happy with cars as appliances? Some are, some aren't. I would guess that the Pelicans are NOT willing to put up with that milk-toast mediocrity., i.e. soul-lessness.

Mercedes-Benz is one of the great innovators. Look at the technologies in our cars today and most of them were first applied by MBZ. From 1886 until today, they have pushed the envelope. My 1979 Benz 6.9 had ABS, among many other features other manufacturers were not adopting on any wide scale.

There was a time when Benz was ruled by engineers. Today it seems to be run by marketers. Sad. But perhaps necessary in today's market and economic climate. The US dollar to euro doesn't help. Diamler-Chrysler is not the world engineering force it once was.

It appears that the automobile, like many other products and inventions, is approaching the 'maturity' stage of its product life cycle. Innovation isn't radical. Evolution is incremental. Now the products are almost commodities. So we buy based on quality and price. In the fifties, we got excited every year when they changed some chrome and added a fin. The marketing types haven't given up on trying to tell us why product 'x' is better than 'y', but they're still spendings hundreds of millions to sell us 'improved' flavored carbonated sugar water too.

This is a harsh reality for many auto makers.

It seems the big three are struggling with how to suck in new buyers with rebates, gimmicks, and fanfare. They HAVE to keep their plants running, thank you UAW. They waste R&D $$$ on rebates and healthcare. Quality is improving, but they keep having setbacks.

The European makes are still entrenched in engineering to some extent. There are more acronyms and initials in a modern german car than most government agencies.

The Japanese have focused on manufacturing efficiencies. To them, quality is a measure of efficiency. If demand exceeds supply, they cut production to match. They simplify product offerings to minimize the variables. Want a black Honda Accord with Gray leather? Sorry, if you want Black you get tan leather. Want gray leather, buy a Blue one. Don't want a moonroof? Sorry, they all come that way unless you move a model down. The US automakers need to get this. You can 'opt' for more $$ than the base car in some models!

Lexus is not an innovator, as Z-man points out. Pelicanites, and other enthusiasts, appreciate performance and soul, not just efficiency. Does Lexus continually strive for better steering feel? Do they run the Nurburgring looking for that tenth? No.

The buying public (i.e., non-enthusiast) doesn't know or care. They just want a car that will get them from point A to point B in whatever comfort they choose to pay for. To them, a Lexus is just a more comfortable Toyota. Sure, there is still a status factor and they capitalize on it.

All that said, I could care less what you choose to buy with your own hard-earned money. Just be informed. Every car has their quirks, some more than others. Every car breaks, some more than others. Lexus dealers still have service departments and mechanics.

What I often find offensive about Lexus owners is their strongly-held belief that making a different decision (Benz, Jaguar, Cadillac) is surely the wrong choice because Consumer Reports says so.

E

[Z-man]

Originally posted by yellowline
As the market moves towards a point where nearly every car is well built, what does Lexus have to offer that distinguishes itself? Not the driving dynamics of the BMW, the Old World luxury of Jag or MB, the safety of Volvo, the AWD and technical skill of the Audi, nor the brashness of a Cadillac. Just a soulless lump of metal that promises to go for a long time. Maybe the IS is sporty and disproves that, but nothing else from Lexus really goes against what I just said.

Nevertheless the "red and black circles describe everything about a car" crowd will continue to snatch them up.

The Volvo cars are no safer than any other luxo-car in it's given class. It's just marketed as the safest car. Don't believe the hype!

Another note: now basically all cars, including the low-end econo-boxes come with stuff like ABS, airbags, even Navi systems, the luxo carmakers are in a bit of a bind -- like yellowline says, what distinguishes a luxo car from a regular run-of-the-mill commuter car? So far, I believe the luxo car makers have only done the following:
1. More gadgets. Stuff like BMW's i-drive, Cadillac's night vision, Benz's distronic (radar controlled cruise control) are 'invented' in order to keep the luxo car buyer happy knowing his car has someting the 'lowly masses' cannot afford (yet.). The problem is that these electro-gadgets add complexity, and this complexity adds to reliability issues.

2. More power. These days, it is not unusual to see 500+ hp coming out of 'sedate' 4-door luxo sedans. (ref: BMW M5, Benz E55, Cadillac STS V, Audi S4). And stump pulling torque. Granted, there are some cheap, high-hp cars (Mustang, STI, EVO & Vette come to mind) but it seems the 'high roller' isn't satisfied with a 240-hp luxo car - he needs that power as an extension of his own power.

Just my $0.42. Good discussion here,
-Z.

[Z-man]

Great points, kaisen. I agree with your opinion.

Originally posted by kaisen
There was a time when Benz was ruled by engineers. Today it seems to be run by marketers. Sad. But perhaps necessary in today's market and economic climate. The US dollar to euro doesn't help. Diamler-Chrysler is not the world engineering force it once was.

Actually, the harsh reality of MB is that it is ruled be bean counters today...
-Z.