Plenty of can-am McClarens would disagree. They ran 427 Chevy engines.

C&D is a bunch of pu$$sies these days...more interested in writing wittily (so they think) than in reporting anything worthwhile.

Sorry. I'm not convinced that a car that will scare the bejeezus out of mere mortals is the best sports car out there (and make no mistake about it, 99% of us on this board are mere mortals when it comes to driving, even though we think we are something special).

Hell, even C&D mentioned that the Carrera gave the driver an instant confident feeling that the Z06 did not.

I don't want a car that scares me coming out of every corner when the stability control is off. What kind of fun is that?

1fastredsc-

Corvette has won LeMans 5 times with a 7.0L (427cid) C5R. 4.13 inch bore x 4.00 inch stroke. And it lived 24 hours under race conditions. Dantilla is right about the CanAm cars too.
Titanium rods allow the PRODUCTION LS7 in the new Z06 rev to 7000+ rpm.
For what it is worth, the production 7.0L LS7 weighs LESS than a 3.8L Porsche motor (both dressed).

2.7RACER-

A stock 400hp complete new LS2 from a 'mortal' C6 Vette is under $6000

A stock 505hp complete new LS7 from the Z06 is under $14000

How much is a NEW Porsche motor with 400-500 hp? Okay, how much does it cost just to rebuild it? OH! You're kidding, right!?


450KnotOffice-

Didn't all the magazines have very similar comments about almost every 911 from 1967 to 1989? With less than half the horsepower? Trailing throttle oversteer? Anyone?

The Viper weighs at least 300 pounds more than the Z06 and wears 40mm more rear tire, both of which may keep the rear in check

E

They were big block 427's back then. This one is a small block.

Some people will just never like a Corvette. It wouldn't matter if it was 2500lbs and had 800 hp, Or how many races it wins. In the end to them it's just a Chevy. Just like the Ford GT is still a Ford. For some, I think unless it's made overseas, it's not a real sportscar and they would never be caught in something so common as a Chevy or a Ford.

The problem with the Corvette more then anything is the image of alot of people you see driving them. In the entire time I've been racing or tracking my car, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 well driven Vettes. But I see old ladies and old men, or middle aged men, trying to impress who really don't have a clue driving them all over the place. I have to agree with Jim on one point though, when I think of a Corvette owner, I don't think of a sports car enthusiast

That being said. I really like the car.

It does not matter where it was made to me. My little RX-7 is called a rice burner by many and snickered at in the pits befroe it goes out on the track then all the people that saw it fly by wonder what is up with it?

I could have easily built up the more respected 1993-1994 FD RX-7 but liked the down and dirty look and image of the older 4th generation RX-7.

Quote:

The problem with the Corvette more then anything is the image of alot of people you see driving them. In the entire time I've been racing or tracking my car, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 well driven Vettes. But I see old ladies and old men, or middle aged men, trying to impress who really don't have a clue driving them all over the place. I have to agree with Jim on one point though, when I think of a Corvette owner, I don't think of a sports car enthusiast That being said. I really like the car.

When I see Corvettes at DE's I try to line up to go out on the track in a manner where I will not be near them. It is a rare day to find one that has a good driver at the wheel. It is also scary to share the track with most of them.

I'd be interested to hear why that makes any difference.

Again, the LeMans winning C5R's were/are 'small' blocks. That doesn't change the bore or stroke.

Today's engines are also aluminum block and heads, although some later Can Am cars used Donovan aluminum blocks too.

E

big block vs small block is a big difference, just as a Donovas Al block is nothing like a stock block.

Big blocks are called that because they are, they are bigger than small blocks which means more metal and more room to fit those big bores and strokes in. That means less flex and less stress and more reliability.

I'm not saying that the 427 C5R was not a reliable engine, but I'm curious how similar the new Z06 engine is to the C5R. Similar to porsche engines, transmissions, etc that have extra webbing added for extreme/race duty, I wonder how similar the block is between the race and street versions of the 427ci sbc. They may be the same, but they may not.

The 400 cubic inch small block could barely fit the bore into the block, because of the size of the bore they had to siamese the cylinders which caused problems with cooling.

At some point the cylinder walls get thin, the cylinders have to be spread apart, blah, blah. Ya can't just keep putting bigger and bigger bores and strokes in an engine. At some point it's just too big. Obviously they've fit it in the new SBC, but at some point strength and reliability suffer.

That's the difference that small block vs big block makes.

The observations about the PEOPLE that buy and drive cars shouldn't have anything to do with the CAR.

Are you buying a car to fit in?

Most of the people on this board drive 70's and 80's 911's. Might I remind you that 'back in the day' every porno director wannabe owned a 911? Every mid-life-crisis dentist? There were more gold chains and chest hair in 911's than Tom Selleck and Mr T put together.

The demographics of a NEW 997 buyer and a new Z06 buyer are VERY similar. Income, education, age, etc. Most new Vettes, and new 997's are purchased by men in their 50's, often because they can finally afford a $65-75K induldgent purchase.

So Corvette clubs are clogged with old guys (and gals) and their toys. Sounds fair.

The biggest component is the popularity of the cars over a given period of history:

Up until the early 70's, most Americans bought American cars. They saw them in their home towns. They lusted after them. The old guys remember the good old days when muscle cars ruled the streets, Vette included. Those are the cars they want now that they can afford them. This is why Hemi Cudas are $1,000,000.

Imports, Porsches included, were not on most Americans' radar until the mid 70's. When Vettes and muscle cars were emasculated by Naderism, German cars were still built to run on the autobahn. Ah, the lust. Their surge in popularity came from a difference in use in their home markets, where laws weren't as prohibitive.

So from the mid 70's to early 80's, Corvettes were weak and anemic. Porsches were fast and cool. Porno directors and the young and fabulous disco crowd at Club 54 drove them.

Guys in their 30's and 40's remember the mid 70's and early 80's, not the late 60's and early 70's. Corvettes sucked, so they want the cars that were cool. So the 'younger' guys are at DE events in Porsches, and the 'older' guys are in Corvettes.

What will the 'kids' now lust after when they are in their 30's and 40's? Probably cars that rule the streets and media now: Supras and Skylines and Lancer EVOs and NSXs. Not Porsches so much. Not Vettes so much. Maybe Escalades with spinners will be the big dough at Barrett-Jackson.

Fast forward twenty years. The kids in their vintage Subaru WRX STi's and VW R32's will be *****ing about the old farts in their 997's clogging the starting grid and getting loose in all the corners.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the guys that run track events will appreciate a Vette or 997. But they will remember reading articles from today's media that praise modern Vettes, Vipers, etc. and won't remember when Vettes were really crappy, like we do.

Gold chains and geriatric supplements aside, modern Corvettes are great cars with tremendous capabilities.

And I'll own a Z06 when I'm old ;)

E

Back to the Viper vs Vette thing, I did try a friend's Viper at Streets of Willow. For you non locals, Streets is a very technical track that doesn't really favor HP. Yes, even 914's go as fast or faster than 911's there, but let's not start that one again :)

I figured the Viper would be a pig, but at 8 or 9/10 it's a dream. Lots of weight, but power assists, TORQUE, killer brakes make it seem smaller, and yup, easier to drive than a 911 for my limited skills. I'll bet the 'regular' Vette is the same.

I still figure it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow, and I'm not in the market for either, but that thing is a hoot.

I agree. I'm not old and I can drive and I'd own one in a minute. But on this board, there is definately an opinion of the typical corvette owner. Unfortionately for many, they will miss out on a very good car.

Kinda like a Miata is a girls car. ;)

I am 40 years old and do not like Corvettes because they are worshipped like thay are the best rides on the road. I got to flog a 04 Z-06 on an Autocross course. With all the hype leading up to this drive I was sorely disapointed in it. What probably scewed my opinion was the fact that I just drove a 375RWHP Supercharged Miata that made the Vette feel heavy and cumbersome.

I do not base my opinion soley on that ride. My dad owned a C-5 and it sat side by side in his garage with a 1993 RX-7 (he bought it after watching me whoop up on the local Vette club at an Autocross) I Autocrossed and street drove my dads c-5 a bunch as well up until he sold it. He prefered to drive his RX-7 and never drove the Vette anymore. We just did about 3K in mods to his otherwise bone stock RX-7 and he just mopped up a C-5 a couple of days ago with it. The C-5 was screwing with him so when he had the room he put several car lengths on the vette.

My exposure to the 911 was through my cousin who was a PCA driving instructor. Before I got to drive his 911 I was not all that interested in 911's. That drive in his car changed me.

Also - My uncle has owner a Vette his entire driving life. Since the 60's he has always owned one and some were very bad ass. I always like my uncle Tommy's Vettes when growing up. My disdain for them didn't start until I joined the SCCA. I had to race C-5's with my RX-7 in A-Street Prepared. We could all do full exhaust, intake and suspensions. The thing that killed me was the rule that did not allow me to control my boost which essentially stopped my car from making any power. So a Z-06 could be making upwards of 450 HP in their 3200 lb car and I was rule limited to 250HP in my 2800 lb car. Guess who would win? The Vette until I took a bunch of Evolution driving schools then I was inching them out. Then I moved up to BP.

When the Elise was hitting the roads here in the USA the SCCA decided it would NOT be classed in SS where about 50 Vettes run each year in the nationals. It would be put in a racing prepared class temporarily for evaluation. God forbid the Elise might beat the Vette at the Nationals. Now the Z-06 is hitting the road a year later and the SCCA is allowing the Elise in SS.

In B-prepared an RX-7 driven by Steve Obleans mopped up the Vettes for 3 years straight with him leading by 7-10 seconds over them at the end of the weekend at the nationals. The SCCA decided to fix the problem and hit the RX-7's with a 100 lb. weight penatly and the Vettes with a 100 lb. lightening. Obleans sold his RX-7 and moved on to open wheel.

So excuse me for hating Americas sweetheart. I have dealt with rules made to make sure it keeps winning. I have friends with Vettes and have recomended them to friends looking for a fun car but they are not mechanically inclined.

After whipping up on that superior C-5 on the track I promptly sold my MINI. I like a car that needs to be driven not one that you can ride in. That might be hard to understand. My 911 and my RX-7 both lack DSC and ABS which makes for a LOT more fun on the track when driving them hard.

I would never own a Vette.

Kinda like a 2.0 litre growing to 3.8?

It's commendable that Chevy engineers are doing their best, and vastly improving the Corvette. They are racing them, to improve their street cars. Sound familiar?

Go to an ALMS race, and there are more factory engineers for the Corvette than Porsche. They are racing (and winning) in a higher class than the 911 GT-3 RSRs.

Sorry, guys, but there are lots of similarities between Porsche and the Corvette department over at Chevy.

John Heinricy, GM Corvette engineer, has enjoyed fantastic success as a 'professional' driver. He and Dave Hill have certainly improved the Corvette breed in terms of applying what is learned at the track.

Jim-

The 93 RX7 your dad has is a perfect candidate for a LS1 engine transplant. There are a growing number of LS1 powered RX7's and they may represent the best of both worlds. The Vette V8 is only a little heavier than the stock N/A engine, and very similar to the turbo engine when you take plumbing and hardware into account. No boost and no rotary = reliability.

E

I used to see a SBC RX-7 swap on my way to work sometimes. It sounded really sweet and mean. I never wanted to play, but one day I bit just to see how fast he was. He walked away from my '88 like I had put it in reverse. Pretty darn cool.

The last RX-7's were the best looking. The RX-8's are horrible, but I guess they didn't want to compete with the new Miata.

True to a point. Yesterday's GM small blocks and today's LSx V8 architecture are VERY different.

For starters, they are all aluminum and were designed to be. Everything changes, including cooling characteristics, flex, etc.

The LS7 (production Z06) is derived directly from the C5R motor. They are almost identical castings, including the cylinder heads.

The LS7 is a SIX bolt main design: splayed four-bolt upper and cross-bolted sides into doweled-in-place forged steel bearing caps (regular Vettes get powdered metal caps). The block is a deep skirt design that extends below the centerline of the crank. The cylinders are siamesed. They are pressed in liners made from a strong steel alloy - same as a C5R or C6R (regular Vettes have cast-in liners). The crank is heat treated forged steel (regular Vettes are cast). The forged titanium rods weigh just 480 grams each - almost 30% less than the powdered metal rods in the regular Vette's smaller LS2 V-8. This is one of the reasons why the reciprocating mass is almost identical to the 'smaller' LS1 5.7L (346cid) in 97-04 Vettes even though it displaces 23% more. And why the Z06 has a 7000 rpm redline, under warranty.

All LS7 engines are assembled by hand at GM's new Performance Build Center in Wixom , Mich. The exacting standards to which they are built include deck-plate boring and honing of the cylinders and even crank line-boring of the block with the deck plates and side bolts installed - procedures normally associated with the building of racing engines and almost unheard of in a production-vehicle engine. Porsche and Ferrari are certainly exceptions.

The C5/6R heads feature 70-cc combustion chambers that are fed by huge, 56-mm-diameter titanium intake valves. The titanium valves each weigh 21 grams less than the stainless steel valves used in the LS2, despite the valve head having 22 percent more area (again reason for 7000 rpm redline). They are complemented by 41-mm sodium-filled exhaust valves (vs. 39.4-mm valves in the LS2). To accommodate the large valve face diameters, the heads' valve seats are siamesed; and, like the C5R racecars, the LS7's valve angles are held at 12 degrees - vs. 15 degrees for the LS2 - to enhance airflow through the ports. Based on C5R racing experience, the LS7's cam provides .591-inch lift (15 mm) on both the intake and exhaust valves - almost .066 inch more than the LS2's already stout .525-inch lift specs. Complete CNC porting of each cylinder head is performed on five-axis milling machines.

Having inspected a bare C5R block very closely (you can buy one from your GM dealer for ~$6K), I can say that what differentiates them is mostly the bosses and mounting pads for accessories and the cast-in dry sump lube of the LS7, versus external dry-sump pumps and passages in the C5R. They have similar webbing, etc. The heads are darn near identical. They may be the same with some added machining for clearances and mountings for accessories.

I would think that the LS7 will hold up just fine for aggresive driving, track days, and every day use. Could you enter a Z06 and finish the 24 hours at Daytona? Doubt it.

When we are talking about 'stress' in an engine, even at 505hp it's still only 72hp/liter. Piston speeds are less than HALF what a Honda S2000 endures at redline. I think the LS7 is overbuilt.

E

Dads car has been running problem free for 4 years now. I had to rebuild my engine 3 years ago after a Boost malfunction at Sebring, my own fault. The car boosted 30+PSI for long durations on 3 occasions. I was wondering why I was loosing traction in 3rd gear in a straight line. The engine lasted 7 monre months and I rebuilt it. I am now running 15PSI and 400RWHP for 3 years running problem free. When I say problem free I mean ZERO nada nothing to take care of. Change the oil and sparkplugs and go. There is no need to rip out a perfectly good engine and replace it with a big honkin v-8.

I have seen LS1 swaps, like dropping a v-8 in a 911 not my cup of tea, not why I bought the car, but do what you like.

My appeal to the Rotary is the fact that I am pumping out 460HP from 1.3 litres. We are in the process of adding a better fuel system to my RX-7 so mid 400's to the wheels are not far off.

The reliability issues with rotaries are due to people who:
a. do not take care of them
b. mod them without knowing what they are doing.

Many people buy J-spec JUNKYARD motors from Japan and blow them one after another and get frustrated. Its a JUNKYARD motor what do you expect.

Everybody can stroke the new Z06 all they want but how can people have so much of an opinion without driving the car? Some of you guys need to stop living by magazine performance figures and stop bench racing. Do raw numbers really matter when your on a sprited drive on back roads? Of course not. What it's all about at that moment is how the car makes you feel. The reason I would never buy a vette isnt because its a chevy but for the fact that it does not have that connected feeling that the 911 has. But I guess I have the best of both worlds since I can still beat the new Z06 in the straights and also have the 911 feel. :)

Agree 99%. Just like my wife will never permit a BMW in the family (she says their corporate hubris is just too intolerable) nor a MB (she says they're "grampaw" cars).

But the Miata is a girl's car. ;)

Right, i wasn't comparing weight, i know domestic v8's are pretty good at being compact and light. Anyhow i stand corrected, I was just imagining in my head how very wide bore engines usually have issues with detetonation because of how far the flame front must travel. That and with all the stess on the rods with that much stoke, and the amount of stress on the rod bearing, etc etc. I stand corrected.

Comparing #'s is the easy part. Have you ever compared them in person? In a tract situation? Do forget you are arguing with guys that track every weekend.

I agree with the short lifespan of a Vette. After 50k miles the joints start creeking like a 90 yr old ladies hips. And $65k for a CHEVY!!!

Let the magazine racers race, I find it amusing! :D These guys know it all since they read C&D, R&T, and MT.....

Okay, I haven't driven the new Z06. But I have driven the standard C-6 Corvette with a "mere" 400 hp, and thoroughly enjoyed every sideways minute of it.

Some here are true Porsche fanatics, but I guess I'm more of a plain old "car nut". I love my 911, but that doesn't make it the only cool car on the road.

You're right, the new Z06 only has a different chassis, engine, and suspension than the standard Vette so you definately have a solid basis for an opinion.:rolleyes:

And I suppose that the guys who write for magazines, who get paid to drive eveythying on the road and compare them, have no valid opinions?

I think a magazine racer is a person who compares cars strickly by reading hp figures and the articles. Not getting in them and driving.

And you know this because YOU'VE driven a new Z06 AND raced one!?

And aren't you being hypocritical based on your second post?

E

I say that most of them either:

A) Like to make themselves sound intelligent or funny. It's pretty stupid to compare the structure of a car (the late Thunderbird) to Katherine Hepburn with Parkinson's. Witty and thought-provoking metaphor, but not technical or of the quality you'd expect of a magazine. I really don't see comparisons like that about foreign cars...those are all either good, better, or best.

B) They like to find fault in everything, and this goes for every car. If the car is parked in their lot, there's something wrong with it. A badge won't be dead-on, an angle of the car will look either too ugly, bland, or whatever. I blame them for the horsepower escalation, which is going to lead to another crackdown like in the past. While nice for performance cars, the jury is still out on whether the public needs 350 hp in an Jeep, or 240 in an Accord.

If we put the Z06 chassis end engine under a 928 shell, took away all Chevy markings, and gave it a backseat, I think some, if not most people here would praise it for being so powerful, having Ti this, Al that. The handling flaws would be "character." We'd put up with the LSx design just like some do with early-mid-70s 911 engines, some of which are proven to be boat anchors, needing rebuilds every 50-100k. If it were produced by Porsche, it would be a "race-derived motor, you can't always expect them to last forever at high rpm."

I've road driven a 996. Do I make a judgment on its track characteristics or qualities?

No magazine racing here. I am sure it is an awesome car. Like I said before I would never buy one. To me its the Lexus of the sports car world, a good safe choice for an unimaginative buyer who likes to follow the masses. If I was going to blow 64K on a sports (pun intended) car I would use my imagination and come up with a much better and more rewarding car to drive. Warranties are not important to me neither is image. I do not buy cars based on image nor do I buy a car based on its SCCA classing or what is hot in the car mags.

Granted there will be a limited number of Z-06's on the road at first but by then end of this generation run they will be everywhere. I see at least one C-5 Z-06 every day and dozens of C-5's everyhwere I go. They are like the Camaros of the 90's.

Again, I am sure it is an amazing car and I am glad Chevy has attained such greatness. It just gives me something to shoot for at the local AX and Open track days.

Actually I'm not because I have driven one. And I expressed my feelings earlier in this thread. I never said it was a POS since it was a Chevy but I said how it felt driving one. Its my opinion and I can base that opinion on experiences I have had, not just magazine numbers and some writers impressions.

Honestly I think the opinions of magazines are skewed. Reason being; how are you supposed to have an objective opinion when the car makers are the ones that pay your paycheck from the advertising? Think about it....

And the above post excludes guys like Phil Hill and Paul Frere who are not puppets.

Of course they're skewed. So are mine, and so are yours. And Phil Hill's opinions are skewed, too.

That's why they're called opinions.

Thanks, you missed the point.

Since we brought out of the woodworks what seems to be a chevy expert. I'm curious, why is the c5r a near million dollar race car if it shares quite a few things with the z06 427? Also, are all these new motors still using pushrod designed v8's?

Yup. The design that eliminates the danger of a broken timing belt. The design that doesn't require adjustment. The design that is NEWER than the overhead cam. The design that seems to get better gas mileage...Malibu V6 EPA estimates suggest it does better than a similar OHC Camry. 22/30 vs 20/28. The design that tends (not in the Z06's case) to have peak torque at a more usable RPM in normal driving. Must I go on?

The subjective case of refinement has no doubt been addressed in the Vette...even the pundits, incredibly, find little to complain about in GM V8s.

The engine parts of a C5/6R is not very expensive. As I mentioned, the block and cylinder heads are cast in lower volume than mass-production GM engines, but they're still available from any GM dealer. The blocks are still 6+ TIMES (!) as much as a production piece ($6395), but a LS2 aluminum block is only about $995. The C5/6R heads (same casting number as LS7 heads) are $900 bare. The Callies 4340 crank that Katech uses in the C5/6R motors runs about $2300.

However, the labor intensive build, machining, and coatings inside a C5/6R make their engines much more expensive than the LS7. Building a motor to the 'n'th degree for that level of racing is expensive, even if the basic parts are not. Still, Katech C6R motors run under $30,000 for a ready-for-LeMans longblock.

There is a lot more that goes into an entire race car than just a longblock. You all know this. I'm not sure that GM would tell you that it costs $1M to build each C6R, but they also have R&D and hand-fabrication for quite a few one-off parts.

As for the pushrod vs OHC debate, well, each has their place. I'm not sure I care where the cam is placed as long as the valves and ports can be uncompromised for velocity and volume of their application. For two valves per cylinder (lower rpm, higher torque, higher port velocity) pushrods are just fine. The motors are certainly more compact.

Yellowline is right about the fuel efficiencies of newer pushrod motors. The 505hp Corvette Z06 (7.0L) is a good example. It is rated at 26mpg freeway. The base 325hp 911 (3.6L) is also rated at 26mpg.

The new 2006 Chev Impala SS has a FWD version of the LSx architecture (aluminum 5.3L V8) which puts out 303hp / 323 ft-lb and is still rated at 28mpg. The 190hp DOHC 24V V6 in the smaller 2006 Toyota Camry XLE is also rated at 28mpg.

Say what you will, the numbers are pretty good.

E