Ah, there's that "initial quality" thingy again.

If Michael Jordan misses a 3 pointer, you shrug it off and say "oh well." You pretty much would expect me to miss (and I wouldn't disappoint you.)

Let's make a note to discuss this subject again when Porsche surpasses the 30-year crap mark.

Toyota did that in their own advertising. It said in fine print "special advertising section." They have very good PR.

Anyone who's not smart enough to figure out that the glossy section with the smaller pages that is glued into your magazines in an ad, then you have bigger problems. I ignore those, so I didn't see it, but I find it hard to believe that Toyota claims that a Prius is faster than a Vette or Viper. That's not even their target audience, the Prius is about gas mileage, and feeling warm and fuzzy that you're doing your part to save the manatees.

Re: Re: GM's CEO, Rick Wagoner, writes WSJ Editorial
 

The Big Three automakers were very invested in a national health plan, because it could move the cost of taking care of their workers off their books and onto the taxpayers' backs. Much like WalMart currently does -- paying some workers so little that they can qualify for food stamps and other forms of assistance.

Corporations do not have a 'moral imperative.' They operate solely in self-interest.

And perhaps a minimal health care 'safety net' is not a right. But we're paying for it anyway, unofficially through health care costs that have to compensate for those who cannot pay. I haven't seen an unbiased analysis yet that shows the difference in net cost between a government program of subsidized health care and what we have now.

Why do mid-70s 911 engines last about 50k miles before needing a rebuild? Why do 911 engines have problems with head studs? 928s with electronics and synchros? 944s with timing belts, oil cooler seals, and 20 other things?

If Porsches were within the range of the average car owner, they would've been junked for the 915 tranny long ago.

The difference is that we're different people. We like the cars we have. They have some semblance of collectible value. We care enough to rebuild them when things go wrong. It's a labor of love in many cases, rather than a headache.

The average American car owner owning a Camry or Accord or Impala doesn't care about rebuilding a mere form of transportation. They'll junk it and move on. They don't want to have the same car 30 years later. Modern car companies build accordingly, all of them. Do you see the same quality and thickness of sheet metal, even on German cars?

You're half right, but the consequences are not as you describe.

When a GM buyer (working man, used to standing in line, shopping at Wal-mart, getting pushed around in life) has low expectations, and discounts many of the small problems with his new car, GM does better in the J.D. Power survey than it should.

When a Cayenne buyer (executive, demands perfection, no tolerance for quality problems or parts outages) sees any little thing wrong he raises a huge stink, screams at anyone and everyone and trashes Porsche in the J.D. Power survey. This pushes the Cayenne down to a much worse position than it should.

I saw a report regarding exactly this, that a GM or Hyundai buyer will tend to live with little stuff, while a BMW or Porsche buyer will raise hell for every squeak and rattle, driving their ratings down.

Porsches are kept around because they're worth keeping, and have an enthusiast base that supports them that you don't find with a Grand Prix. Now compare an '80s Porsche with an '80s Camaro, another car that has enthusiast support to keep it around. Have you ever ridden in an '80s F-body? You spend your entire ride with your hands out, waiting to catch the interior bits that sound as if they're going to fall off with every bump. Somehow I also doubt that most 305s can make it 2-300k without a rebuilt like a 3.0 or 3.2.

I agree with Rick. The fed needs to step up the the plate and do what's right. If the fed can justify subsidized health care for its employees, congress, the president, the military, native Americans and everyone else in between why can't it help big business, and small, with controls and subsidies for healthcare in the private sector? It seems to me that road building, defense, education and healthcare are just some of the essential elements necessary for a prosperous nation.

I'm a unionist and not going to even try to hide this fact. But, Rick did mention that GM has several issues and one wasn't concessions from UAW. I thought the part about a level playing field is something that needs a serious look.

FWIW, there are no Z06's in Alaska to test, but hopefully, I will have an opportunity in Feb when I'm so Calif.

You entirely ignored all of the flaws I mentioned. Also, I'm not defending what GM did in the 80s. I'm defending them in the here and now.

And for the statistical reports, what about the average Japanese car owner? If they have a few problems, they may say "Eh, it'd be worse with a domestic" and artifically boost their company's rating. Also, I doubt a Toyota owner is significantly better off than a GM owner.

GM can certainly work on vehicle dynamics, I'm not arguing there. But as everyday transportation. I think they're approaching Toyota or Honda. I've driven relatively new examples of each car, as a valet. Blindfold me and I couldn't tell you which was which. Making some sort of positive distinction and eclipsing them should be GM's goal, not just building select lines of high-end vehicles to chase people who never will give them a fair chance.

But you did bring forth the problems that older Porsches have, I was just coming up with a GM corollary. I can't claim to have test driven a new GM sedan vs a Japanese one, but I have been out recently helping my inlaws shop for a new small car, and from a fit and finish standpoint GM has improved, but Honda, Toyota, and even Mazda have the edge in materials and interior design, with VW beating them all.

I would bet that if the truth were truly known, the Japanese would lead by a wide margin when it comes to fewest problems per new vehicle. Really, why is it only initial quality they tout, why not quality years down the road? Of course, my inlaw's Expedition has been recalled something like 13 times, their F250 SD not far behind, along with several each for their kid's Grand Prix, Grand Am, Sable, and Dakota. Perhaps I should mention that they purchased a Mazda 3, their first foreign car ever. Losing customers like them out of frustration is why the domestics are in trouble.

If you think more high-level, GM and the unions have to negotiate defined-contribution health insurance and retirement benefits. I'm not sure what's more foolish: management promising to pay all the health insurance and retirement benefits indefinitely, or the unions believing that they will do it.

As for national health insurance, I think that many people from both sides can see the wisdom in a lowest common denominator barebones health system paid for the government. An arrangement like this would help convey the appropriate message that basic healthcare is a right, but premium healthcare commands a premium. This would be a huge boon to employers who could be sure that the basic needs of their employees would be met, and could then include upgraded health insurance as a true benefit.

I think I missed the ammendment making basic healthcare a right.

I see rights as guarantees that the government will stay out of my business, not promises that they will give me stuff.

It's demonstrably a right even now. Stick a knife through your arm and walk into an emergency room with no ID and no money. Suprisingly, they usually won't have security toss you out into the parking lot.

What's incredibly inefficient is that many people get very sick and go to the emergency room, costing billions of dollars a year, when a quick and inexpensive check up from a nurse-practicioner and a $5 prescription for a generic drug would have prevented the whole problem.

We pay either way. :(

But that's another thread. Suffice it to say that many staunchly Republican CEOs would love to have a plan like I describe.

Level playing field? Ha! "I'm losing on my home court, so I should be able to ask the referee to give me an advantage."

Not asking for a bailout? Ha! The last sentence sure sounds like someone is asking for a bailout.


Most of the comments against GM are right on. I laughed out loud at the comment about SUV sales versus small car sales. For the past 5 to 10 years, they've been pushing the big SUV and trucks. Hell, when I think GM I think Corvette and trucks. Did they really push other models?

Yeah...overseas sales is breaking records alright...they sold 2 cars in a foreign country that never knew GM existed before this year. Ha!

The commentary is a cry for sympathy and it's full of BS. Lets blame everything but the damn company! He sure can write a good piece. There'll be a lot of people who will feel sorry for GM.

I've had plenty of GM product and they all sucked. I was at a Chevrolet dealership not too long ago to pick up my rental car at the Enterprise counter w/in the showroom. While I was waiting, I looked at the cars on the floor. All of them, over priced POS that I wouldn't buy if they gave me a 2 for 1 deal.

While not specific to GM, here is my take on domestic:foreign products.

We bought a zero mile Subaru Outback in 1999. Daily driver, gets no love as it is our "drive it into the ground" car. We took it in for its' 60k mile service recently and rang up a $600 bill for general service, tune up, brake pads, turn the rotors and a new instrument pod ($200 alone). Other than regular oil changes that is the total cost of maintenance for 6 years.

We bought a zero mile Chrysler Pacifica in 2002. The family car. It has been in the shop for rattles and poorly installed external trim (never fixed) as well as for air in the power steering system. Rattles, creaks and other noises are becomming more frequent as time goes by. Had a few pieces of trim inside fall off to boot. I honestly think that in a couple of years I am hosed when the warranty runs out.

WOW ground breaking news here import owners say all American cars are crap. American car fans say all imort cars are crap. Id say our impressions of our cars can be skewed by our likes. We tend to forgive problems with cars we like and overstate problems with ones we despise. No suprise to me that import lovers outnumber American car fans on this board.

Hey gary I bet if the instruments had to be replaced on a chevy at 60000 miles people would be screaming bloody hell about the crap product it was.

What's sad though Craig, is that I WANT to like American cars, but every time I'm in one, I can't make myself. They're the home team, I have to root for them, but thus far they're pulling a Buckner and letting the ball roll between their legs. If some of them, especially Ford, would bring some of their European market cars to the US, it would do wonders. The Mondeo and new Focus compete well with the best European cars in their segment, while we get the Fusion and the Focus gets new headlights. Of all things, why would an American company sell their best products only overseas? Do they just think they can sell us crap and get away with it? Obviously not, as Ford is cutting a good chunk of their workforce too.

Ya know, there was a time when almost everyone was an American car owner. I'll never forget when my best friends dad--an Oldsmobile man through and through who bought a new one like clockwork every two years--got his first foreign car back in the late 70s. It was some little weird looking Toyota wagon. You should have heard this old guy rave about it.

Every import car fan had a moment of epiphany when they first realized domestic cars are crap. American car fans just aren't there yet.

Maybe GM should hold a contest and see if they can find a former Accord owner who'll go on record as prefering a Malibu. Better strap him to a lie detector though.

As a Porsche driver (even if it's a 944, it's a vaunted German car - does that one up the Accord?), I'll go on record as saying that I fully intend to make my first new car purchase one from an American-headquartered company. Should be in approximately 7-10 years. That is, if America doesn't put them out of existence first.

With a new Camaro potentially coming based on an entirely new RWD architecture, this might be interesting. Might shake the mullet image, who knows.

Interesting news:

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005249

JD Power announced (Dec 8, 2005) their latest 'customer retention' numbers. Lexus (63%) and Toyota (62.6%) topped the list, to no big surprise.

What may be a surprise to some of you:
CHEVROLET was 4th on the list at 57.3% retention.

Ford was 6th with 54%
Cadillac was 7th with 53%

Industry average was 49.6%

Acura was 15th with 45.7%
Porsche was 17th with 44.4%
Mazda was 35th with 23.4%

What do you think?

E