legailtiy of photo-radar....and a rant....

[bell]

akron ohio police have been using portable photo-radar (they call it "automated mobile speed enforcement"), set up in and around selected school zones.
there are no posted signs of the device and it only measures about 12"x4" on the face side, sitting about 1 ft. off the ground on a tripod.
they are also sneaky about them with their placement, the one that got me was hidden between some bushes.
it was not an active school zone (it was 1 hr. past the morning school zone time), and my radar detector did not go off, a coworker of mine came through the same zone and his was going off like crazy......my remote mounted "bell" radar detector picks up everything (bumper mounted radar sensor/window mounted laser) but this stupid little piece of technology didn't go off once.......

anyway......i always thought when such a device was being used that they had to post a sign.....
i'm pissed but will pay this stupid $150 ticket (no points on liscense).........unless i can find a legal way out of it.
your thoughts?

[Rick V]

Go and grab the radar unit and hold it hostage. You can put it somewere near the police station and see how many cops it nabs!
In my neck of the woods the best place to drive is behind the cops since they don't obey the speed limits.

[pwd72s]

Buy a paint gun, see if you can bullseye the lens...

[Moses]

Take it to trial. You have the right to face your accuser. Put the camera in the freakin' witness seat! If the camera is the only witness, insist that the judge swear the radar camera in. "Mr. Radar Camera, are you certain it was my car you photographed?"... "Your honor, please instruct the camera to answer the question!" The judge is absolutely forbidden from entering evidence or testifying, so who will bring the case against you? If no officer was present, I don't see how there can be a legal prosecution.

[bell]

very interesting........
i'll try to scan the "ticket", looks like a quality laser printer printed it.

a coworker said he saw them setting it up earlier in the morning.......but was done by 2 guys in a grey van, not uniformed police officers.
i'm trying to dig up more info on this, city ordinances and all......could almost be a scam

[bell]

just dug this up
http://www.ci.akron.oh.us/News_Releases/2005/0909.html

Date:
Contact:
September 9, 2005
Mark Williamson (willima@ci.akron.oh.us)

Phone: 330-375-2538
Fax: 330-375-2335

CITY PROTECTS CHILDREN WALKING TO SCHOOL
NEW SPEED ENFORCEMENT TECHNIQUE IN AKRON
Akron’s school children and their crossing guards will have a helper soon in the battle to keep children safe on their journeys to and from school. The City of Akron is proposing the use of a mobile, automated speed enforcement technology to slow down drivers in and around school zones.

"This is not," said Mayor Don Plusquellic, "the controversial red-light system other cities are using or contemplating."

The City refers to it as the Automated Mobile Speed Enforcement System (AMSES). A company called Nestor Traffic has offered Akron its Poliscan Speed® system at no cost for the technology or equipment. The only cost will be a payment to Nestor by the City of $19 per ticket issued through use of the laser radar (LIDAR) device.

The system uses a van with a camera mount. The digital camera scans three lanes of traffic 100 times per second in two different directions. Information is sent to a computer for the issuance of a citation later.

Akron City Councilman-at-Large John Conti has been exploring methods of slowing speeders on city streets for more than two years and said at an afternoon news conference with the mayor today, "What we are buying is a service. I have been advocating this program since earlier this summer after seeing it in action. It acts both as a deterrent and an enforcement device that does not take police officers out of their normal patrols to run radar."

As motorists pass the Poliscan device, their speed is determined and a camera records the front and rear license plates. A ticket is issued to the registered owner of the vehicle.

Legislation sponsored by Conti would amend the City Traffic Code by enacting civil penalties for violations of the AMSES. Currently it is a criminal offense for anyone to speed in a school zone. But, because these infractions would be considered civil violations, motorists would incur no points on their driver’s licenses.

Violators will be assessed a civil penalty of $150 in a designated school zone during restricted hours for speed recorded between 21 and 34 mph and under 35 mph. For violators doing 35 mph or more, the fine escalates to $250.

The system will also be set up outside designated school zones in areas where children walk to school.

Conti explained that City Council’s role is to consider the legislation establishing these as civil violations. "We also will be setting up an appeals process for motorists who wish to contest their citations," said Conti. "The process would involve an independent third party, not employed by the APD."

Police officers are not involved in the process. Nestor Traffic provides the equipment, technology and clerical work in recording violations and mailing citations.

Mayor Plusquellic added, "The Automated Mobile Speed Enforcement System will alleviate the need for our conducting extensive conventional traffic enforcement in and around school zones."

After a three month trial period with the Poliscan Speed® device, the City will issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) for other companies who may want to compete to provide the service on an ongoing basis.

[Joeaksa]

Interesting. Did not know that "nestor traffic" were sworn law enforcement officials? I would like to see what happens on this one.

Scottsdale had problems with the light running cameras in that they shortened the time on the "yellow" lights. People started timing them, took it to court that the stop lights with a camera were .4 of a second shorter and proved that it was a "money generation plan" instead of a "law enforcement" plan and forced the stoplights to be re-timed.

I hate them... Agree with Paul and the paint ball gun idea.

JoeA

[competentone]

Talk to your elected officials on this one, and KEEP talking to them.

If they get enough citizen outrage about it, the units will be gone.

There is a clear conflict of interest when a private company is building the machine, setting up the machine, catching the supposed speeders, mailing the citations and is only making money if citations are issued. What sort of oversight is in place to prevent this company from defrauding the public?

If speeding is really that big of a problem in school zones, and if the elected official are really concerned about the safety of the children, then why don't they get real law enforcement personnel out there and get the criminal charges filed against these speeders? Why are they willing to settle for "civil" penalties and a chunk of money? Do the elected official care that little about the children's safety?

[competentone]

Originally posted by bell
...it was not an active school zone (it was 1 hr. past the morning school zone time), and my radar detector did not go off, a coworker of mine came through the same zone and his was going off like crazy......my remote mounted "bell" radar detector picks up everything (bumper mounted radar sensor/window mounted laser) but this stupid little piece of technology didn't go off once....

This could be an indication that this Nestor Traffic company is committing fraud. Your lack of detection of a radar signal could mean that they are not really checking traffic speeds, but are issuing citations randomly to the vehicles they capture in their photos.

They only make their $19 if a ticket is issued. If day-after-day and week-after-week all cars passing their camera are obeying the speed limit, are we to believe that they will accept the fact that they won't take in a single cent in revenue?

A cop checking speeds can be a lot more objective; he's getting paid whether he sees speeders or not. With this company, they have a very strong incentive ($19 each) to find "speeders."

[bell]

personally i believe i was speeding, and i believe this was the day i first saw the device, i remember first seeing it and thinking "is that what i think it is? f**k"....but that was 2 weeks ago..........so who really knows

everything related to this is being called a "civil violation", i can appeal it through a "hearing officer" through an 866-xxx-xxxx phone number, looks like everything involved is handled by Nestor.
i'm not paying it yet........

[RoninLB]

plead not guilty.

[bell]

if i appeal it it looks like i don't go to court where i could plea not guilty.....there is no referance to akrons court house on this violation, only a court or company appointed hearing officer.......
it says i have to appeal and then they'll contact me and tell me when and where i have to go

[cstreit]

INteresting this article it said "A third party" will accept requests for appeals...

WTF is that? So a camera gievs you a ticket, issued by a corporation, and then your "appeal" is determined by another company?

Shouldn't the the courts or our law officials get involved in this? Or are we not leaving law enforcement up to private corporations?

[Joeaksa]

Chris,

Agree and this just does not pass the smell test. It smells bad and so far I cannot see any reason to believe that its going to get any better as time goes on. I normally say to pay the fine and move on but I would fight this one.

JoeA

[coloradoporsche]

It's a revenue generator, plane and simple. They'll keep the fines sufficiently low such that vast majority will just pay rather than hassle with fighting it.

Funny how it has been shown that the red light version actually causes more accidents than it prevents in many locations. But that's not stopping the cops in my city from using them.

[RoninLB]

if bell pleads not guilty it'll probably be dropped.

[island911]

Won't anyone think of the children?

[Hugh R]

Accidently run over it next time with your Pickup.

[Jim Smolka]

From the initial post, it sounds as if the unit was defective since it was taking pictures 1 hour after the school zone time. According to the posted document, the tickets only appy during school zone times. Sounds like a great defense.

[bell]

just to note........i never speed in a school zone, 1 because of children.....they are as unpredictable in heading as a squirrel, 2 it's HELLA expensive
here is what it says on the back of the "ticket" which is confusing in it's own right....
this is word for word......
______________________________________-
FINE AMMOUNTS: the fine amount is based on the rate of speed in excess of the posted speed limit. a civil penalty of $150 shall be assessed to the registered owner for speeds in excess of 20 miles per hour and less than 35 miles per hour in a school zone during restricted hours and a civil penalty of $250 shall be assessed for speeds of 35 miles per hour or greater in a school zone during restricted hours. a civil penalty of $150 shall be assessed for speeds in excess of posted limits, but less than 15 miles per hour over the posted limit. on streets and highways not in school zones that include crosswalks used by children going to or leaving school. a civil penalty of $250 shall be assessed for speeds that exceed the posted speed limit by 15 miles per hour or greater on streets and highways not in school zones that include crosswalks used by children going to or leaving school.

NO POINTS will be assessed for this violation, nor will it be used for insurance purposes.