So tell me about handguns......

[Shuie]

Originally posted by jyl
But is this really a valid test? Shooting 1,000 rounds through a handgun without cleaning - I've done it with one of my guns, just to see what would happen, but you normally wouldn't ever do it. It's like deciding to drive a 911 and a Chevy 100,000 miles without changing the oil and see which one seizes first - what does it prove? It not normal use.

For me its a valid test and normal use.

A handgun is a simple mechanical device that typically has less than 50 parts in it. Comparing scheduled maintenance of a handgun to that of any car is not exactly apples to apples.

Its not unrealistic at all to think that you might shoot 2000 rds in a weekend at a training facility or a defense oriented school like Gunsite. You wont have a clean gun everytime you step on the range at a place like that. You might not even clean it between days of the course. I wouldnt.

Its not uncommon at all for someone who spends a lot of time playing with this stuff run multiple 250rd sessions over the course of a day off or to wind up shooting 1000rds through the same gun in a weekend. IPSC shooters often shoot 50k-100k rds through a gun in year. I'll run a boresnake through mine at the beginning and end of a session or maybe add a drop of FP10 every once in a while, but I dont field strip and clean a gun every time I go to the range. Its just not necessary.

[jyl]

I see your point - 1,000 rounds w/o cleaning can be normal use for some handgun shooters - competition, multi-day training courses, real heavy shooters who spend a lot of time shooting.

I'm not that heavy a shooter. I go to the range about once every 10 days, shoot about 200-250 rounds with 3 handguns so 50-100 rounds in each, and clean after every couple of visits.

But compared to the average "home defense" handgun owner, both of us (and I suspect most of the people posting in this thread) are in fact "heavy shooters". I read somewhere that the average handgun seldom gets fired (though I don't know how this was determined).

[dhoward]

Sorry.
I'll happily disagree on "not cleaning after 1000 rounds".
Especially competition, i.e. uspsa (IPSC) shooters.
If you are a serious competitor, you WILL take the time to clean the gunk out, brush the barrel, etc., between stages. Now, it's been a while, but I've shot in competitions with guys like Robby Leatham, Brian Enos, and Riley Gilmore. ( This was when Robby shot for SA and Brian shot for Colt) I've had a lot of beers with Riley, and shot one his prototype plastic holsters, in both the Masters, and Bianchi.
So I'm not new at the handgun game.

Takes a lot of shaved lead to stop even a tight PPC gun, and I've shot PPC revolvers for over 20 years. Still do. Major power practical autos are, and by their very nature, tweaky.

To suggest keeping a dirty firearm at all for self defence is just silly. If you end up in a firefight requiring a thousand rounds, it's time to move.
Keep it clean, Keep it loaded, and keep it close.

JMO.

[jyl]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins

The answer for the kids is to take the mystery away. The "forbidden fruit" can be dangerously attractive. This has worked for generations prior to the new PC "safety" devices. Teach the kids about the guns, let them shoot them as much as they like, and lay down the law about them. They will soon develop a healthy respect for them, rather than some potentially unhealthy, but entirely natural, curiosity.

The people and laws where you live have got to be considered too. In CA if a child shoots himself with your unlocked gun, you have committed a felony (I'm skipping the fine print in the statute, but that's the gist of it). When the child or his parents bring a civil lawsuit against you, you may find that you don't have insurance coverage (some homeowners' policies have a felony exclusion, and some courts may enforce it).

Also, the crime rate where you live should also be considered. In the zip code where I live, there's been zero homicides since 1990 (the earliest year for which I can find data). You can go to other zip codes in the SF Bay Area that average a homicide a month, or more.

Ref:
http://www.campionrodolff.com/news0201.htm
http://www.rivkinradler.com/rivkinradler/Publications/newformat/200210krinick.shtml

[Shuie]

okay, fine, I should have left the IPSC comment out. Comparing an IPSC game gun to a self defense gun is not apples to apples either. Bad analogy. My fault.

All Im saying is that the idea that revolvers are more reliable than a decent semi auto is not true. Shaved lead, no matter how long it takes to happen, will completely seize a revolver up to the point that the trigger can be pulled and the cylinder cant be opened. Powder residue will gum a revolver up and cause the action to bind much faster than it will a semi auto. The latter can definitely happen in an extended shooting session that started with a perfectly clean gun.

[vash]

serious? i have seen gun camps and people are always cleaning the guns. nothing gives creeps like misbehaving weapons.

matt, get a gun you like, and one that fits. unless you are looking for something specific, like hunting, or plinking, they all do the same thing. but i would opt for a better quality piece. i once cheaped out and bought a tauras 9mm. the cheaper copy of the baretta 92. (picture martin riggs shooting south africans smuggling gold coins). i had to tap the rear sight so far to one side to get the gun to shoot straight. i sold it, and bought the baretta. the pistol was awesome. i shot like a rock star. now i have a bread and butter sig. i can defend myself, but i need more practice. spend alittle bit more coin up front, you wont regret it.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by dhoward
If you end up in a firefight requiring a thousand rounds, it's time to move.

If that isn't the truth, I can't say more.

[vash]

LOL!

[scottmandue]

Get a crossbow!

http://www.crossbow.com/

It's a joke!

[jyl]

Okay, so we're done with the reliability stuff. Now it's time for some more gun porn.

I'm at work (like there's any work going on today), so can't post pics, but will when I get home.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Chiming in late... haven't waded through all three pages...

A good .22 pistol will be fun at the range, and will let you hone your skills and get used to squeezing the trigger (not pulling) and getting and holding a good sight picture. Plus it's fun as all heck! Ammo is cheap, so you can shoot a lot for a few bucks.

However, a .22 is not a good defensive weapon.

Sure, a lot of people will push you toward larger caliber and more powerful handguns like something in .45, .40, .357Sig or whatnot... but a 9mm would be your best bet.

Ammo is also pretty cheap (relative to other pistol ammo) and is uber-common. This will allow you to practice with it a lot. (I suggest range sessions of NO LESS THAN 200 rounds each... it takes over 1000 repetitions to develop muscle memory, so shooting only a few rounds really doesn't help much at all) 9mm is also available in some really good defensive loads nowadays.

What I would recommend is checking out a few 9mm handguns. Go to a store and handle a few of them. Try handling a Sig, Glock, S&W, CZ, Ruger... anything you can get your hands on. Feel what is the most comfortable in your hands. Check your Natural Point of Aim - Hold the handgun out to your side and point it at the wall (make sure no one is in that general direction, of course!) and close your eyes. 'Aim' at something, then open your eyes, and see where the pistol is actually pointing, compared to where it felt like it should be pointing.

Whatever you decide on, get lots of practice with it. Get a few extra magazines. Get a good cleaning kit. Read the manual! Learn how to strip it, clean it, lube it, and put it back together. I'd give it a 2-300 round break in period, and then determine if it's reliable by shooting another 2-300 rounds. I'd expect 1 or less hiccup in that time to consider it reliable.

Personally, I'd pick up a CZ75B in 9mm. I have one, and it costs a bit less than most of the other pistols mentioned. It's reliable, accurate, and easy to use.

[nostatic]

Jeff, we agree on some things, disagree on others. My guns are locked in a safe. At present a loaded mag is kept separate, but I *might* switch to having one gun loaded (chambered but decocked so it is DA) but still in the safe. Why?

First off, I have a 9 year old staying with me every other night. I will introduce him to the gun soon (have to have that discussion with my ex) but I still am not comfortable about having a loaded gun lying around no matter how well trained he is. He's 9. He's impulsive.

Secondly, what happens if someone breaks in my apartment when I'm gone? With the guns in the safe, they can take my valuables, but the perp isn't going to kill anyone with my basses (unless he goes on tour with Brittney or something). But if I have one or both Sigs out? He'll take those in a heartbeat and use them for god knows what.

I just don't think that the odds of my confronting a perp in my apt are very high. More likely is civil unrest during some disaster, in which case I'll have plenty of time to pop open the safe.

But, we each make our own decisions. ymmv.

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by nostatic
First off, I have a 9 year old staying with me every other night. I will introduce him to the gun soon (have to have that discussion with my ex) but I still am not comfortable about having a loaded gun lying around no matter how well trained he is. He's 9. He's impulsive.

Secondly, what happens if someone breaks in my apartment when I'm gone? With the guns in the safe, they can take my valuables, but the perp isn't going to kill anyone with my basses (unless he goes on tour with Brittney or something). But if I have one or both Sigs out? He'll take those in a heartbeat and use them for god knows what.

I just don't think that the odds of my confronting a perp in my apt are very high. More likely is civil unrest during some disaster, in which case I'll have plenty of time to pop open the safe.

You have a very sound approach to the big three issues with any gun: kids, the gun being stolen by a criminal and time to arm. The fourth is, of course, the will to use it, but that is an entire thread by it's lonesome.

My approach differs from yours only slightly: I keep my primary weapon in a small, portable safe with an easy combo.

During the day it is hidden. Each night I unlock the safe and keep it handy. My kids are both well acquianted with guns and are very good with them...I simply choose that method because it suits my safetly factor.

To OneWP, choose your path carefully...you're off to a great start.


Lastly, Kimber porn:

[rcm]

Any S&W revolver. Always shoots easy to maintain. Almost all cops carry some sort of Glock, Sig, 1911 or whatever.

Backup is S&W .38 or a Ruger SP101 357 revolvers or something similar...

[chibone_914]

The best defense is a level head, cell phone (to dial 911), make sure wife and baby are with you, hit the unfriendlies at the door. SA M1911 MIL-SPEC with my action reliability job on it sits next to me. If I can't hit em' with eight rounds of .45 I can always club them with it!

[Jeff Higgins]

There is a lot of good advice put forth on this thread by some folks that have obviously thought through their own situations quite thoroughly. I think the important points can be distilled down to two main issues. Selection of a firearm and storage.

Probably the best advice on here concerning selection is finding something you like and can be comfortable with. A common caliber in a proven pistol or revolver lends itself to lots of practice and provides the reliability you will want. Go shoot some and have fun making a choice. You will find us "gun nuts" to be pretty opinionated; none of us are "right" and none of us are "wrong". Preferences vary. We don't all drive the same car, do we?

Storage is a huge issue. There are some great comments here about life situations that do not lend themselves to "ideal" storage, where the gun is accessible at your fingertips at all times. That is one end of the spectrum that not many of us can achieve. The other end would be gun, magazine, and ammo stored seperately under lock and key. Somewhere in between those extremes of usefulness and uselessness is real life. Kids, spouses, neighbor kids, local laws, liability, insurance, etc. all come into play. The basic gun classes at the local level address the legalities pretty well. The level of risk you are willing to assume, weighed against just how accessible you want your gun, is ultimately up to you.

The key is to make informed decisions on both. Guns are a very personal thing on both fronts. What is right for me may not be right for you. I will always champion ready accessibility and training for all members of the household; it has worked well for generations in my extended family.

I will always try to counter what I perceive to be advice given more in an effort to be PC than practical; advice given by the hand-wringing "for the children" quasi anti-gun crowd that does not seem to have much practical experience. They are relentless in touting their way as the only option, and have even managed to get laws passed in some jurisdictions limiting storage in the home to their way. I believe there are more viable options and, as adults, we should be free to choose. I will continue to present arguments for what I feel are those other options, because you may not hear them otherwise. Make informed decisions; understand the weight of responsiblity you assume by choosing to be armed; pick the gun that is right for you; store it in a manner that balances safety concerns with accessibility. Every situation is different.

[speeder]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Sorry Rick, but I couldn't dissagree with your position more strongly. I have two boys, now 15 and 18. I have never used a trigger lock of any kind, nor a lock box. Both boys knew how to operate any firearm in the house well before they were ten; both knew exactly where the home defense gun(s) were and how to use them. I grew up in a home with loaded guns everywhere. So did most of my cousins. So did my dad, and his dad.

This lock box, store the gun seperate from the magazine, carry with an empty chamber, etc. mentality is utter foolishness of the highest order. I hope to God you will never have to defend yourself or your family. Let me explain, and I hope you do not take this personally. Your views are held by many, but they are dead wrong. Pun intended.

I agree w/ the foolishness of the unchambered round 100%, but I don't have kids. If I did, I'd have a palm print safe, (or whatever they call them), under the bed w/ the Glock in it w/ a round chambered. I've always believed that guns are pretty worthless in any real life type crisis unless they are ready to fire and within arms reach. It always makes me scream when some hero on TV is racking the slide on their pistol as they creep into the dangerous house/alley/whatever, I mean give me a freakin' break!! What if you don't want to announce your arrival?? What if you need to shoot someone *right now*? Plus the aforementioned chance of pulling the trigger and hearing "click" because you were scared and forgot, no way Jose. One of the best features of guns in general is the "surprise/I've got a little secret for you" factor.

[ledhedsymbols]

I have to agree with the fact that revolvers are especially good for home defense. I have one that lives in my nightstand (which I will discuss shortly.) There is one simple reason why I prefer a revolver. I am a military man, and have been an avid shooter all my life. I still don't care to get up at 2 in the morning and try to clear a misfire from my auto-loader before I can defend myself or my family. If a revolver misfires, pull the trigger again (or cock and pull if single action.)
As for my recommendation for a handgun. Mine, and highly recommended is a S&W Model 66. It's a .357 Magnum revolver. It isn't a pocket pistol, so the magnum loads are fairly comfy to shoot. This pistol is indestructable. You can also find a good used model for less than 400 bucks. Reliable, accurate as all get out, and cheap to own. It gets my vote.

[azasadny]

Pistols are like any other "tool", it really depends on what you want to use them for, there isn't one "best for everything" handgun (IMHO). I have a Beretta 92FS 9mm and I'm getting a Sig 239 9mm this week and I like both of them, but I use them at the range, not for home defense. I keep my weapons in my gun safe and I feel better that way, as we have had our home broken into and I don't want the guns stolen. We have an alarm system, new steel doors and new windows. We keep our doors locked and have adequate lighting, and I think that's the best we can do. Other people feel differently than I do about this, and I understand their viewpoint...

[onewhippedpuppy]

My personal plan for storage is a small fingerprint safe under the bed. Easy to open in a pinch, and up to three people can use it. No combos or keys to loose/ forget, it does have a backup key though. $300 in Cabelas, I haven't shopped around to see if they're cheaper elsewhere. Stored safely away, I won't worry about keeping a round chambered, ready to go.