went to my 1st autocross today....RICE RULED!!!

R22tech · R22tech's Garage

I only went to be a spectator and see if I wanted to put my car through next time. I have to say, I'm a little disappointed. There were many porsches of all flavors running today plus 1 subaru wrx and a honda crx. Most of the porsches from '78 on including 911s, boxsters, turbos, twin turbos, ect. seemed rather clumbsy through the course. Squealing, leaning, sliding all around, spinning out or just plain slow! The early 70s 911s were by-far more composed out there. So were the 914s. But what really bothered me was the runs the honda crx was making. That car was so composed and so fast through the course, it was embarrassing! I mean it wasn't even close. I didn't stay to the end but I believe the crx was about 10-12 seconds faster than every porsche out there! Seriously, I have a new found respect for the crx rice boys. I think I will go next time and run my car, but I am finished talking up how well our 911s handle. It wasn't very graceful and that's being kind.img]http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/grenade.gif[/img]

stray15 · stray15's Garage

Yeah, but who would do better on the track.

Porsche, through and through
Tim
'83 944
http://community.webshots.com/user/strayer15

http://www.geocities.com/tstray15/Home.html

andyu911 · andyu911's Garage

CRXs still rule in most IT races around the country. It's a great autoX machine. (speaking as a formal crx owner) It's cornering ability embrassed a lot of race cars when it first introduced in '83. Besides, it's the driver, not only the car.
Andy

Obin Robinson · 07-26-2001, 05:11 AM

autocrossing by itself doesn't interest me like it does some people (who make it their ONLY hobby). a lot of "going fast" has to do with how much you want to beat the living hell out of your car.

an example: once during the winter, i went faster in my POS Nissan than i did in the SUMMER down the same road in my 924. how can that be? impossible? no. at that point, i was really sick of my Nissan and i was TRYING to destroy it. i drove it like i hated it, because i did. i would 4-wheel drift through every corner, do e-brake "rally turns", and drive the car like i was trying to win the Targa Florio. i didn't care one bit if the car broke, and i was fully prepared to walk home if necessary. when i got home i was amazed that i got there in my fastest time EVER! then when i thought about how i took all the corners, and how my Nissan was "crabbing" most of the way home; it made a lot of sense.

if you are willing to beat up your car, you will be faster than if you are trying to take care of it. bounce off the rev limiter, drive it so that the RPMs NEVER gon under 4000RPM. left-foot brake, match the revs, etc. at one point in my Nissan i had my left hand on the steering wheel, my right hand going between the shifter and the e-brake, my right foot pinning the gas to the floor, and me left foot going between the brake and the clutch. no wonder i got home so quick!

those guys with the CRXs know that if they screw up their car, they can get another one. they spent less on a racing engine than the "doctor and lawyer 911 crowd" does on a set of super-duper tires that an advertisement said would cut 2 seconds off of their lap time. i've driven CRXs like they were supposed to be driven and when you do, they're FAST cars! i have a friend who had a very nice CRX that could stick to the rear bumper of a Mustang like it was glued. he spent less on his car than i did on my Nissan. the key was that he's willing to take his car to that one extra level that most people aren't.

one more item has to do with where you can "test" your car when the autocross is not going on. we have a dozen farm roads, dirt roads, gravel roads, empty parking lots, and dusty fields in which we can practice e-brake turns, 4 wheel drifts, and other crazy maneuvers. if your only place to practice autocrossing your car is at the autocross itself.... you will never do better than a beat up CRX

.

one more point... i know a guy that brought his 1990 Honda Civic to a PCA invitational autocross in California. he proceeded to beat EVERY Porsche there except two guys... one in a 944 and one in a 911. he said it was absolutely sad. there were doctors and lawyers with $40,000, $60,000, and $80,000 911s that drove them like they were on their way to pick up the mail at the bottom of the driveway. most of these guys with turbo cars kept them revved so low the turbo wasn't spooling up properly. you'd have these show-offs with 911s that would spin in a corner, and hit so many cones that they might as well be trying to hit cones to collect points. what did they get beat by? a damn good driver in a Honda that is worth less than their wheels and tires were worth. i told him "good job! there's way too many Porsche owners out there that think that just because they have a nice car they have automatically become a good driver." it's the same reason that with my 924 i can stick to 911 bumpers like i'm glued there at 80mph. sure you have 100Hp more than me... doesn't mean you know how to use it. in the meantime i'll just stick here behind you and when i see a long stretch i'll wave as i go by.

obin

Ted Stringer · 07-26-2001, 07:34 AM

Its like one guys sig "its all the driver"

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Ted Stringer
nuke3@juno.com
'84 911 Targa aka pocketrocket

Z-man · Z-man's Garage

Interesting points, Obin. I have seen many a Porsche on the autox course driving like it's a Sunday drive: that's why I would typically beat 1/2 the Porsches with my MR2 n/a with almost 200k miles on it!

However, I think that to win at autocross you don't have to execessively beat your car: yes, you do work the suspension and wear the tires more than normal. Bouncing off the rev-limiter will only slow you down. But staying at redline isn't pampering your car, for sure. Slides and drifts are really good for show, but they aren't always the quickest way around the course! My take: a day of autocross will put a little more wear on your car as if you drove the car daily for two weeks.

Also: power to weight and handling have a lot to do with autocrossing, that's why Miatas and MR2's do so well! When comparing an IT prepped CRX to stock Porsches, you're comparing apples to oranges: such a prepped CRX has the obvious advantage. That's why most autox events have different classes, so that similar cars (power, handling...etc) compete in the same class.

I am an avid autocrosser, but plan on doing DE events now that I have a Porsche. DE instruction and club racing maybe in the future.
People own Porsches for different reasons. Personally, if you're not driving your Porsche hard either at the track or at autocross events, I feel you're missing out of the full potential of your car. However, if I had an $80,000.00 car, I don't know if I'd like to risk putting it against the wall. (That's why I'm happy with my 944!!)

Just my humble opinion.
-Z.

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My toy: http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/Z-man

Obin Robinson · 07-27-2001, 06:03 AM

exactly Z-man. i don't mean to say that you "HAVE" to beat up your Porsche to autocross it... but those guys with CRXs aren't afraid to bouce off the rev limiter, or wear off the equivalent of a week's worth of rubber from their back tires. if it's a big drift or e-brake turn that will cut 3 seconds off of your time... some people are afraid to do it. i drove my 944 yesterday and spent most of the time within 2000RPM of redline. damn that was fun. driving these cars like you're putting around the golf course is no fun. some people aren't willing to drive their Porsches hard. you should see how europeans drive these cars... i remember watching a video of a Porsche factory driver taking an early 924 through roads that would make some people cringe. he was beating the hell out of that car and it looks like he was having a ton of fun doing it too.

ever see those Mercedes and BMW films where they do 360 degree spins on dry (or slightly wet) pavement? what about the way that they drive the cars on the "Motorvision" show on Speedvision. i especially love how they'll put a VW Golf GTI through the paces that you'd expect a full-blown race car to go through.

i have friends who autocross frequently. i also have friends that rallycross, or rally race, their cars. people shouldn't be afraid to break their cars. just don't break your SELF in the process.

one of the most influential things i ever heard was said by Phil Hill (america's first F1 world champion) at a small PCA/Corvette Club/Ferrari CLub reception. let me recount what i can (i wish i taped it).

Q: Phil, do you own a sports car?

Phil: No, i haven't owned a sports car since the 1960s. i had to get rid of it because i was getting in too much trouble with it. every time i'd get up to a stopight and someone would rev their engine... it would be all over. we'd get out on mountain roads and drive these cars to their limits. after too many speeding tickets, i HAD to get rid of my sports cars.

Q: would you buy a sports car today, like a Porsche, or Ferrari?

Phil: probably not. i can't stand the thought of owning a car and not being able to drive it to it's fullest every day. i'd rather have a 60Hp MG than a Dodge Viper.... you can drive the little MG flat out with the pedal to the metal... and nobody can tell.

with that, there was a ton of laughter from the crowd. he was 100% right though. many people don't understand why i don't have a 911, or a 914, or some other sort of sports car with a lot oh horsepower. i tell them that i'd rather eat up back roads in my perfectly balanced 924 singing at 5800rpm... than bog around the city streets doing 50rpm above idle. the first time i really opened up the 924, i was damn surprised at how much POWER the car has when you really rev it. it makes an absolutely terrifying sound. it's borderline "i'm about to explode" and it makes you WANT to either back off the gas, or push it harder to the floor. when i did bust the hell out of the 924 engine... i decided to rebuild it for harder (racing) driving.

i'm fully ready to admit that this year my wedding has destroyed my Porsche budget. i CAN'T afford to drive my cars hard this year because i have spent so much on my wedding that i could have BOUGHT another racing engine. many people buy Porsches not for the fun, but to show off. it's those guys that will never drive their cars to the fullest extent. they're too afraid of "depreciation" or "putting miles on it" or "getting it dirty".

whatever. i condemn them to a life of getting lapped by $3000 CRXs

obin

AMCPorsche924Powerhaus! · 07-27-2001, 09:23 PM

AND THAT MY FRIENDS,

is why we have all these crapped out beat to hell 924s that are barely restorable.

people drive them harder than 911s.

if u don't have power, you beat up the car.

do some mods on your 924/944 and drive in lower rpms, stop beating them up going slow, and go fast.

[This message has been edited by AMCPorsche924Powerhaus! (edited 07-27-2001).]

Obin Robinson · 07-30-2001, 04:44 AM

HUH?!? that made no sense at all.

obin

Obin Robinson · 07-30-2001, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AMCPorsche924Powerhaus!:
AND THAT MY FRIENDS,

is why we have all these crapped out beat to hell 924s that are barely restorable.

people drive them harder than 911s.

if u don't have power, you beat up the car.

do some mods on your 924/944 and drive in lower rpms, stop beating them up going slow, and go fast.

[This message has been edited by AMCPorsche924Powerhaus! (edited 07-27-2001).]

so how do you explain the beat to crap 911s that have no floor pan? or the ones that sit in a garage for 7 years because they are missing fenders? or the pre-1980s ones with rotting rocker panels? i can go out and photograph more rusted and beaten 911s than any other model of Porsche. i'm not going to do it for free, but i can do it by driving within a 1 hour radius of my house. i pass by a rusted out one twice a day. it's a silver one.

i know a lot of people that drive their 911s very hard. they drive them like they were meant to be driven. i see more 911s than any other form of Porsche at the race track. the car has very good aftermarket support and their performance is well documented. anyone willing to jump into racing a 911 has a wealth of information to choose from for tire pressures, suspension geometry, shock valving, spring rates, etc. this is not as true with the other Porsches.

honestly, AMC, you sound a bit jaded. did you not enjoy owning a Porsche? we got lots of compliments on our cars from the people in our PCA region. maybe you live in an area with too many snobs? in either case your comments deriding Porsche owners because of their choice of cars are honestly not welcome.

obin

AMCPorsche924Powerhaus! · 07-30-2001, 08:48 AM

that's great, but the reason you see rusted 911s is because there are more 60s and 70s 911s around than 924s, considering USA 924s only started in 1977!. Take a look at the number of posts on the 911 board (one car)...compared to the combined amount of posts of the 924.944.968 (three cars) board, more people own 911s, the more cars there are, the more chance you are going to see more of them and form a biased opinion.

there are 60s 70s and 80s and 90s and 00s 911s around all over the place.
about 4 decades of 911s.
How many 924s are there. hmm..in USA 1977-1982, that's 5 years!

I have never seen a beat up late 70s or 80s 911 (not saying that there aren't any), but I have seen several beat up 924s, in fact I haven't seen one nice 924 in person yet, but I have seen many prize looking 70s 80s 911s .

It's a known fact that the majority of 924 and 944 owners do drive there cars harder than 911s, because the cars are not as fast, the people who own them generally do not know how to work on them, some of them do.
A lot of 911s get serviced at the dealer, the majority of dealerships will do an ok job on a car compared to some backyard cheap guy who knows nothing about cars working on a 924 (not your or me, I'm talking about the majority of 924 owners that owned these cars in the 80s). One reason is because the majority of people who buy 924s do not have money. They have been taking their honda civic car (or whatever they had) to the dealership to get fixed, but this 924 is too costly to take. They get there "mechanically inclined" buddy to work on their 924, or they attempt it thereself, and they f-up the car without knowing it. They spray undercoating on the oil pan to stop it from leaking, the 911 owner takes his 911 into the dealership/has enough skill to do it himself.
The 924 owner doesn't have any paint, so he uses carrot juice to paint the car (that's what some of the paint jobs look like), but the 911 owner gets a professional porsche painter to do the job, or he has enough skill that he does a very fine job himself (I have read excellence articles with DIY 911 guys that have beautiful paint jobs, and souped up 911s, i've never read about a 924 DIY guy with a hot 924 and a hot paint job he did himself, they just don't have the money)

I can't believe I am arguing with a guy who says "I'm not going to help you if you buy a 911 SC" and "there are no dragsters on this board" and yet a drag post shows up at least once a week on the 944 board, even though my intent on increasing the 944 engine performance was not to be a dragster, so i don't know why you brought up that when you KNOW that there is a drag post on that board every week!. And for a guy who thinks the 924 carrera gt is so special since it can beat 911 turbos...great, but it melts engines every race, a 2 litre engine with 300 plus HP, it's not practical. it'd be cheaper just to race a 911 that is more reliable.
And for a guy that thinks that the reason you have a 924 is because it's slow, so you can keep the pedal floored while driving all the time...and then performs mods on his car...WTF?,,,and that driving a 911 is silly because you only have to have the pedal halfway down to have fun, and having the pedal to the floor is the only way to have fun in a porsche...but then you admit that 911s are good cars just recently...what the hell kind of reasoning is that dude. It's not how far you have the pedal down that counts, i mean why not buy and AMC pacer and floor it out the driveway and have fun!

It doesn't make any sense that you are interested in modifying your 924 (you did the port and polish, etc), and yet you just said that there is no point in modifying a 924..because the car doesn't need modification, you just have to keep the pedal down all the time to have fun...then why are you modifying it...why do all 944 owners envy and want badly a 951, if the only thing special about a 951 over a 944 is engine power! How can these snob 944 owners say to me "shut the fuk up the 944 has too much power for me to handle....i want a 951"
That's like saying "I want a good handling car....I want a camaro"
So are you a dragster then? as soon as I bring up improving the 944 engine performance you call me a dragster, and yet you have done 924 engine mods yourself...hmmm...so you want to keep the pedal in the 924 floored all the time, rev it at 6600 RPM and go slow, but you are also modding your 924, what gives? which do you want? to actually have a fast 924, or to have a 924 that goes slow so you can keep the pedal floored...it seams that it's just a way for you to argue with me bringing up this silly idea of "my car doesn't go fast, so it's fun because i can keep the pedal floored"
i'm not really seeing any consistency in your 924 morals.

I like all porsches. I think the 924 and 944 and 911 all have great handling, but the 924 and 944 need engine improvement in order for them to keep up with there handling.
I also think that "it's all the driver"
Sure, a beginner can hop into a 924, and hop into a 911, and say "well the 924 handles better"
But that is only because he hasn't mastered the car yet, and the 924 obviously has a MUCH faster learning curve than a 911.
I would take a guess and say that a master of a 911 and a master of a 924 would both handle great, the only advantage of the 924 is that it has less of a chance of spinning out than a 911 or making a mistake, NOT that the 924 definitely handles better than the 911 like most people rant.

SO again, I like and would buy any porsche, and I am in now way saying that I will not buy a 924 because people don't treat them well, I am just saying that the majority of beat up 924s you will find are ALL of them, the majority of beat up 911s you will find, are old ones that you cannot compare to an 80s technology rust protected 924.
Take some pictures of a bunch of beat up 80s 911s...

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why does that car have two pedals? how does it work?

Obin Robinson · 07-30-2001, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AMCPorsche924Powerhaus!:
It doesn't make any sense that you are interested in modifying your 924 (you did the port and polish, etc), and yet you just said that there is no point in modifying a 924..because the car doesn't need modification,

i'm modifying it because i blew a ring on the #3 cylinder. i had to tear the whole thing down so i decided that if i built it back up i might as well build up a racing engine. if i wanted just to fix that ring and get the car going... i'd have done that a long time ago. everything that i've stated on this BBS can be found with the "search" feature.

beat up 911s? you're not looking hard enough. you can find any car that has been beat to pieces... from Mercedes to Fords.

everyone wants more power in their cars. everyone from the 911 owner that pays $12,000 for 40hp, to the Ford mustang owner that buys 680Hp for $12,000. what's your point? why are people that want more Hp in a 944 any different? the only difference is they have 2 less cylinders to work with, and less choice of aftermarket parts. hasn't stopped us yet.

obin

Blackfoot · Blackfoot's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Obin Robinson:
i see more 911s than any other form of Porsche at the race track.

when i ran at sears point, mine was the only 911 out there. and now i know why.

in fact, i didn't see hardly any other porsches out there. and there were about 200 cars that day. lots of bimmers, vettes, rx-7's. there was even one hot volvo, a late 70's one, that was set up so well, it kept up with the other cars that you would think would destroy it.

i learned a lot that day. name brand, forget it. it's all the driver, as ahmet would say, and also how your car was prepared that counted.

Obin Robinson · 07-30-2001, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackfoot:
when i ran at sears point, mine was the only 911 out there. and now i know why.

in fact, i didn't see hardly any other porsches out there. and there were about 200 cars that day. lots of bimmers, vettes, rx-7's. there was even one hot volvo, a late 70's one, that was set up so well, it kept up with the other cars that you would think would destroy it.

i learned a lot that day. name brand, forget it. it's all the driver, as ahmet would say, and also how your car was prepared that counted.

yeah, when i went to the SCCA races a few weeks back, there was only one Porsche 911 there. there was also only one 914. the reason you don't see too many 924s and 944s is that the classes they put these cars in makes them not too competitive money-wise. you can spend less on a VW or Honda and get Porsche lap times. you won't get Porsche FUN though

the reason people race older Porsches isn't because of money... it's because of FUN. do you honestly think the 924 was the top of my list for "i want to spend the least amount of money possible and i want a really fast race car?" hell no! i'm not dumb! if i want fast and cheap i'd have a Camaro. i've driven Camaros though and my 924 was a lot more fun. the ability to point the car in the direction you want it to go is much higher in a Porsche than it is in a Camaro. horsepower ain't eveything either, handling has a lot to do with it... money has an even major influence

.

what i find really disconcerting are the people worried about the "image" of a Porsche. what the hell is that all about? i've talked to BMW and Mazda race car owners that have Porsches... and i've talked to Porsche owners that had Mustangs that will run circles around their 911. what far too many people have is a false sense of "pride" in their car, and they think because they have Porsches they have been given the best vehicle in the world; no argument. these guys need an "attitude adjustment" and maybe it'll take a Camaro or a Triumph TR-7 to do it.

by choosing a Porsche, you have shown that certain things that were important in your other car purchases didn't matter to you in this instance. if i want a fun summer car... i'll get a Porsche. if i want something fun that i can drive on the track, i'll get a Porsche. if i want something that looks great i'll get a Porsche. if i want something that will make me smile, i'll get a Porsche.

if i want something practical, i'll get a VW that's just as fast as my Porsches.

oh wait, i already did

. that said, i applaud that you actaully put your car on the track and got a chance to compare it to the other cars out there. i used to think that Nissan Sentra SE-Rs were just crap (because they're made by Nissan). then i saw one do a lap 8 seconds faster than a 924 and i said "WOW... that's IMPRESSIVE!". does that mean the 924 is a bad car because a Nissan 12 years newer than it is faster? no! does that mean the Nissan is a bad car because it's front wheel drive? no! all it means is that there were two guys out there that are putting their money where their mouth is. i met a nice 911 owner that fully admits that his Mazda was 20 seconds A LAP faster than his 911 (which was much more expensive) was. he's not related to those snooty types that putt putt around the country club at 50rpm above idle. he's the one that says "i want a fast car that will be fun to drive, and i have $100,000 to play with... someone point me in the right direction."

i also ran into guys with GT3Rs that they bought for DRIVER's ED! i am kidding you not! they were parked near the two girls in the 924 Carrera GT that pooped all over the 911s in their class all weekend.

for anyone that is interested in not only seeing how fast your Porsche is.. but how easily it can be trounced by something 1/8 the price... go to a race track. all this nonsense arguing about zero to sixty times and skidpad Gs is just stupid. come and watch $20,000 928s walk all over new Hondas... and watch Turbocharged Ford Thunderbirds eat up 928s like they were standing still. leave the attitude at home because it's not welcome at the track:

enjoy:

http://209.4.91.164/SCCA_races/saturday/

http://209.4.91.164/SCCA_races/sunday/

http://209.4.91.164/porsche_clash/

http://209.4.91.164/zone_1_48_hours/

obin

AMCPorsche924Powerhaus! · 08-03-2001, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Obin Robinson:
i'm modifying it because i blew a ring on the #3 cylinder. i had to tear the whole thing down so i decided that if i built it back up i might as well build up a racing engine. if i wanted just to fix that ring and get the car going... i'd have done that a long time ago. everything that i've stated on this BBS can be found with the "search" feature.

beat up 911s? you're not looking hard enough. you can find any car that has been beat to pieces... from Mercedes to Fords.

everyone wants more power in their cars. everyone from the 911 owner that pays $12,000 for 40hp, to the Ford mustang owner that buys 680Hp for $12,000. what's your point? why are people that want more Hp in a 944 any different? the only difference is they have 2 less cylinders to work with, and less choice of aftermarket parts. hasn't stopped us yet.

obin

I was encouraging 944 owners to mod there car...that WAS my point.

I am not at all saying there aren't any beat up 911s. Of course there are.
I am saying that generally, there are more 911 owners out there that wax and wash there car and go cruising in it. There are more 924 owners who are teenagers. there are more 944 owners who are teenagers.
Now I am a teenager, but seriously I do not treat cars like **** like most of the 924 cars I have seen have been through...and yes there are some 911s but only early 70s ones, I am comparing 80s cars to 80s cars, 80s 911s to 80s 924s.

[This message has been edited by AMCPorsche924Powerhaus! (edited 08-03-2001).]