i'd sell my Porsches for this...

[Obin Robinson]

http://www.4car.co.uk/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=220&pageid=3067



just reading about that thing makes me fidget like a 4 year old. the worst part is that it is NOT AVAILABLE IN THE US

444Hp. oooooooooooh yeah.

(thought i have to admit that i'd still try to weasel out a deal to get my Porsches back)

obin

------------------
The first Porsches weren't made in Germany... and they were mostly VW parts.

[Doug Zielke]

It may have 4444hp, but it looks like it came from a little blister pack.

------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website

[MBlake]

Not available on this planet more like!!!
I will be very surprised if they get enough punters to come up $500,000 for one!

Also, the gull-wing doors are stupid - why would a car that could have perfectly normal doors adopt a comprimise that decreses access and torsion rigidity?? Oh yeah - marketing!!

The Astra origins (yeah right!) are pretty mundane - a poor equivilent of a Ford Focus!

------------------
Marcus

'73 S Targa

[Obin Robinson]

you guys are forgetting, that's a DTM car. they'll get a lot of people to dig deep for the Astra Extreme. the difference between that Astra and a street Astra is like the difference between a VW beetle and a 911GT1.

as for the doors:
"The X-Treme is built on a tubular chassis, on which are hung a pair of carbonfibre tubs either side of the central tunnel. All the panels are carbonfibre too, apart from the roof, doors and pillars which are standard-Astra steel. Carbonfibre also makes up the brake discs and clutch plate."

that's a lot of Carbon Fibre, just about as much as the McLaren F1. i don't think you have much to worry about. it's like comparing the rigidity of a WSC Spyder to a GTP.

more DTM here!

http://www.dtm-racing.net/

obin

[This message has been edited by Obin Robinson (edited 08-03-2001).]

[Doug Zielke]

Now, THIS is something you could be proud of....








------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website

[Obin Robinson]

yeah, everyone i've talked to about the GT3RS says it's much better than the GT3R. the RS is awesome on it's own token. i'd take that over 99% of cars out there.

the Opel looks like it would be a lot of hair-raising fun to drive. all that power in a carbon fibre chassis. not to mention that nice interior, and the lack of all those stupid things that interfere with driving excitement. those DTM guys really put the cars through the grinder. too bad Porsche isn't participating in DTM though.

heck, if i had the cash, i'd get both.

obin

[Roland Kunz]

@Marcus

Also, the gull-wing doors are stupid - why would a car that could have perfectly normal doors adopt a comprimise that decreses access and torsion rigidity?? Oh yeah - marketing!!


Just think over it, how can you get the maximum rigidtiy.

The DTM rules are allowing to design the lower car portion nearly free.

If you read the driverslist; Mayländer, Lamy, Schneider, Asch, Abt,........

OK thats like reading the first years IROC race drivers list.

But I think it is illborn as most car companys move to the F1 for the same money or into the Star division for less.

Right now it is just a Mercedes - Opel battle with some Audi TT runed privat by Christian Abt.
BMW feared to join in there and send there M3 V8 to mix up the Porsche GT3.

The funny thing is the rules wher made under the BMW dictate forcing the other companys to invest much more they would like to do.

BMW race strategy.
Winning by making big words and then don´t show up to play with the big guys.

Grüsse

[Blackfoot]

the porsche looks good...but this bmw v-8 likes the way it looks...in the winner's circle. porsche better wake up, and soon or the domination we saw in sonoma will become commonplace.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Sorry I only have it in german but this is the background from the BMW V8. Run Babelfish and try to reread the original messsage.

Grüsse

Über eine BMW-Pressemitteilung - und dazu Ergänzendes
Pressemitteilung von Firmen können wirklich interessant sein. Wenn man sie aufmerksam liest. In so mancher dieser Firmenmitteilungen stecken so viele Informationen - weil man sie dort "verschleiert" hat - daß sich ein intensives Studium wirklich lohnt. Und manchmal findet man auch Beweise dafür, daß es nicht genügt des Schreibens mächtig zu sein. - Na ja, so schlimm ist es bei BMW nicht, aber... - Lesen Sie doch einmal selbst nach.
Der "small block"-Renn V8 von BMW
98-01-11/02. BMW präsentierte ihn auf der Motorshow in Detroit: den neuen V8-Rennmotor, der lt. Pressemitteilung "für Einsätze in den USA" gedacht ist, aber tatsächlich auch ab 1999 in europäischen Sportwagenrennen eingesetzt werden kann.
Daß BMW den Motor in den USA vorstellte, ist nur logisch. "In Nordamerika", so läßt man Karl-Heinz Kalbfell, Leiter Zentrales Marketing der BMW AG und Geschäftsführer der BMW Motorsport Ltd. sagen, "sind Achtzylinder-V-Motoren traditionell und auch heute noch die beliebtesten und damit wichtigsten Triebwerke". - Was er nicht sagte: großvolumige Achtzylindermotoren sind die Lieblinge der Amerikaner. Ein V8 mit 5,7 Liter Hubraum wird schon als "small block" bezeichnet. Da ist der BMW V8 mit seinen knapp 4 Liter Hubraum eigentlich nur ein "little block"

BMW möchte mit dem ab 1999 vorgesehenen erfolgreichen Einsatz dieses Rennmotors seine "technische Kompetenz auf diesem Gebiet beweisen", wie es Karl-Heinz Kalbfell formuliert. Natürlich gerade in den USA, wo auf der Motorshow in Detroit Mercedes gerade die Einführung ihrer neuen Achtzylindermotoren auf dem US-Markt noch in 1998 bekanntgab. Von der M-Klasse bis hinunter zum C 43 von AMG.

Wenn BMW in der Pressemitteilung geradezu verschämt davon spricht, daß man sich wegen der "unter anderem mit der Vorbereitung des BMW Formel 1-Motors beschäftigten Abteilung (des Technischen Geschäftsführes der Motorsport Ltd, Paul Rosche) zusätzlich der Kapazitäten des Schweizer Unternehmers Heini Mader Racing Components S.A." bediente, dann ist das nach Motor-Kritik- Recherchen eine Untertreibung. Der Rennmotor entstand - natürlich nach Vorgaben von BMW - praktisch ganz bei Heini Mader. Und der nahm auch die V8-Rennmotoren der amerikanischen Konkurrenz auf seine Motorenbremse, um festzustellen, daß z.B. auch bei Chrysler (Oldsmobil Aurora V 8) "nur mit Wasser gekocht" wird. Da ist der BMW-Motor in seiner jetzigen Auslegung tatsächlich deutlich überlegen. Für ihn werden um 600 PS genannt. Und die hat er. Für den Oldsmobilmotor werden übrigens auch um 600 PS angegeben. Auf dem Papier.

Interessant ist, daß man gerade bei Rennmotoren kaum noch einen Zahnriemen zum Antrieb der obenliegenden Nockenwellen verwendet. Beim BMW-Motor wird schon in der Serie der Antrieb über eine zentrale Doppelrollenkette sichergestellt. Und die macht es dann auch beim Rennmotor. Eine Rollenkette ist wohl doch zuverlässiger als ein Zahnriemen. Aber nicht billiger. Und darum kommen bei Großerienmotoren meistens... - Bei Opel weiß man, wie teuer das werden kann.
Ein schönes Beispiel für "schnelle" Pressearbeit bildet in der BMW-Pressemitteilung der folgende Absatz:

"Während der Zylinderkopf selbst unverändert blieb, wurden die Ventilgrößen, die Durchmesser der Ventilfedern und die Steuerzeiten für die Nockenwellen modifiziert, außerdem die Ein- und Auslaßkanäle zur Minimierung der Reibungsverluste bearbeitet."

Ein- und Auslaßkanäle wurden bearbeitet, die Ventilgrößen wurden geändert, usw., usw., aber der Zylinderkopf blieb unverändert. Und man hat die "Reibunsverluste" in den Ein- und Auslaßkanälen minimiert. - Was reibt da eigentlich? - Sicher meinte man die Strömungsverluste. Aber man kann wohl auch von
den Bayerischen Motoren Werken nicht verlangen, daß jeder in der Presseabteilung etwas von Motoren versteht.

Interessant: Es gibt beim BMW Renn-V8 keine Drosselklappen mehr, sondern Drosselwalzen. So wie es da geschrieben steht, könnte man es glatt für eine Erfindung von BMW halten. Ist es aber nicht, sondern wird in ähnlicher Form schon einige Zeit bei anderen Motoren - z.B. in der Formel 1 - eingesetzt.
Der BMW-Rennmotor ist mit seinen 165 Kilogramm nicht gerade ein Leichtgewicht. Man wollte, weil es sich um einen Kundenmotor handelt, die Kosten möglichst gering halten. So wird es in der BMW- Pressemitteilung Paul Rosche in den Mund gelegt. - Und was kostet nun der BMW-Rennmotor?

Das ist nirgendwo zu lesen und selbst nach einer Reihe von Telefonaten mit BMW nicht herauszubekommen. Wenn man den Aussagen von BMW-Mitarbeitern Glauben schenken darf, wird sich der Preis zwischen 75.000 und 115.000 Dollar bewegen - also zwischen rund 135.000 und gut 200.000 DM. Wenn das keine präzise Aussage ist! - Dabei darf der Motor in der amerikanischen Serie nicht teurer sein als eben die erwähnten 75.000 Dollar. Und an dieser Marke orientiert sich wohl auch die von BMW genannte untere Preisgrenze.

Wie man hört soll der Motor zunächst noch eine Praxiserprobung in einem Sportwagen erfahren. Und man geht wohl nicht fehl in der Annahme, wenn der Test in jenem WSC-Sportwagen erfolgt, der gerade bei Williams für BMW und den Einsatz in Le Mans (dort aber mit Zwölfzylindermotor) fertiggestellt wird. Aber was soll das dabei erzielte Ergebnis am Preis ändern?

Interessant noch eine andere Stelle in der BMW-Pressemitteilung: "Die elektronische Zünd- und Einspritzanlage stammt von Magneti Marelli aus Italien." - Das ist wohl das Ergebnis einer Bosch- Entscheidung, ihre eigene Rennabteilung aufzulösen. Bosch sah sich dazu veranlaßt, weil man dringend Ingenieur-Kapazität für die Entwicklung von Direkteinspritzsystemen für Ottomotoren benötigte, die man - wie andere Firmen auch - ein wenig verschlafen hatte. Aber auch diese Auflösung ist schon wieder ein Fehler, der aber erst in einigen Jahren deutlich werden wird. Und manwird dann irgendwo wieder eine Lücke reißen müssen, um eine andere zu stopfen. Wie wäre es eigentlich mit einer Langzeitstrategie? - Auch im Motorsport!

Ja, ja, - wenn man Presseinformationen aufmerksam liest, stößt man auch auf Internas anderer Firmen, für die es bei denen keine Pressemitteilung gab.
Übrigens: Der BMW V8-Rennmotor soll in der Saison 1999 von interessierten Kunden-Teams eingesetzt werden können. Dann müßte er ab Mitte des Jahres 1998 lieferbar sein. - Und ab wann kann man den Preis erfahren?

MK/Wilhelm Hahne

[Blackfoot]

babelfish translation of roland's post:

Over a BMW press release - and in addition completing press release of companies can be really interesting. If one reads it attentively. In in such a way some of these firm messages is so much information - because one " masks " it there has - that an intensive study is really worthwhile itself. And sometimes one finds also proofs for the fact that it is not sufficient writing powerfully to be - well, so badly it is not with BMW, but... - reading you nevertheless once after. " small block" running V8 BMW 98-01-11/02. BMW presented it on the Motorshow in Detroit: the new V8-Rennmotor, which is meant as per press release " for applications in the USA ", but actually also starting from 1999 in European sports car running to be used knows. The fact that BMW presented the engine in the USA is only logical. " in North America ", then one lets say Karl-Heinz calf skin, conductor central marketing of the BMWS AG and managing director of the BMWS engine port Ltd., " is Achtzylinder v engines traditionally and also today still the most popular and thus most important engines ". - which he did not say: large volume eight cylinder engines are the favourites of the Americans. A V8 with 5,7 litres capacity is already called " small block ". There the BMW V8 with its is scarcely 4 litres capacity actually only a " little block " BMW would like with starting from 1999 the successful application designated of this running engine its " technical authority in this area to prove ", how it formulates Karl-Heinz calf skin. Naturally even in the USA, where on the Motorshow the introduction of their new eight cylinder engines on the US market, even in Detroit Mercedes, still in 1998 communicated. From the m-class to down to C 43 of AMG. If BMW in the press release speaks almost been ashamed of the fact that one concerned oneself because of " among other things with the preparation of the BMW formula 1-Motors department of (the technical Geschaeftsfuehres the engine port Ltd., Paul Ro) additionally the capacities Swiss of the entrepreneur Heini Mader Racing Components S.A. " served, then is after engine criticism searches a Untertreibung. The running engine developed - naturally after specifications of BMW - practically completely with Heini Mader. And also the V8-Rennmotoren of the American competition took on its engine brake, in order to state that e.g. also with Chrysler (old mobile Aurora V 8) " only " it becomes cooked with water. There the BMW engine is actually clearly superior in its current interpretation. For it around 600 HP are called. And it has those. For the old mobile engine by the way also around 600 HP are indicated. On the paper.

It is interesting that one uses even with running engines hardly still another toothed belt for the drive of the obenliegenden cam shafts. With the BMW engine in the series the drive is already guaranteed by a central double roller chain. And it makes then also with the running engine. A roller chain is probably nevertheless more reliable than a toothed belt. But not more cheaply. And therefore mostly come with bulk grosserienmotoren... - with OPELS one knows, how expensive that can become. A beautiful example of " fast " press work forms in the BMW press release the following paragraph: " during the cylinder head remained unchanged, the valve sizes, which diameter of the valve springs and the control times for the cam shafts modify, additionally the in and discharge opening channels for the minimization of the friction losses was processed. " In and discharge opening channels were processed, the valve sizes were modified, to etc., etc., but the cylinder head remained unchanged. And one minimized the " friction us losses " in the in and discharge opening channels - which rubs there actually? - safe meant one the flow losses. But one cannot require probably of the Bavarian engines factories that everyone understands something about engines in the press department. Interesting: There are no more butterfly valves with the BMW Renn-V8, but throttle rollers. As it written is there, could regard one it smooth as an invention of BMW. It is however not, but in similar form already some time with other engines - e.g. in the formula 1 - is used. The BMW Rennmotor is not with its 165 kilograms an even leichtgewicht. One wanted, because it concerns a customer engine, which keep costs as small as possible. Thus is it put in the BMW press release Paul Ro into the mouth - and which costs now the BMW Rennmotor? That is to be read nowhere and not be out-gotten separately after a set of telephone calls with BMW. If one may give faith to the predicates of BMW coworkers, the price between 75.000 and 115,000 dollar will move - thus between approximately 135,000 and well 200,000 DM. If no precise predicate is! - the engine may not be in the American series more expensively than evenly the mentioned 75,000 dollar. And at this label probably the lower price limit specified by BMW orients itself. As one hears is the engine first still another practice testing in a sports car to experience. And one does not go probably wrongly in the acceptance, if the test takes place in that WSC sports car, which is finished even with Williams for BMW and the application in Le Mans (there however with twelve-cylinder engine). But which is to modify the result obtained thereby in the price? Interesting still another another place in the BMW press release: " the electronic igniting and fuel injection system originate from Magneti Marelli from Italy. " - that is probably the result of a Bosch decision to resolve their own running department. Bosch saw itself compelled to because one needed urgently engineer capacity for the development of direct injection systems for petrol engines, which one - like other companies also - had overslept a little. In addition, this dissolution is already again an error, which will become clear however only in some years. And again a gap will have to then tear somewhere, in order to plug another. How would it actually be with a long-term strategy? - also in the engine port! Yes, - if one presseinformationen attentively reads, discovers one also Internas of other companies, for which there was no press release with those. By the way: The BMW V8-Rennmotor is to be able to be used in the season 1999 by interested customer teams. Then it would have to be available starting from center of the yearly 1998 - and starting from when one can experience the price?

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Laugh my day Kalbfell and Rosch.........

Now to make the point clear get to BMW and say; I would like to buy a M3 V8 NOW !!!

Exact the winning car streetversion.

They will not have that car and they will even not be able to sale you a engine as it was never a production engine.

Go to Porsche and they even can sale you a used 996 GT 3 for street or race ready cars.

If you need the engine you get it from the shelf or you can buy them used or in pieces.

If you need the block you buy a 964/993 and you have it.

And the best off all it even isn´t designed by BMW as they needed the manpower for F1.
The BME engenieers made a inline 6 for the M3 witch seems not to be competive enough to fight Porsches flat 6 so they used a V8.

This engine was made to run in the DTM with the Opel, Mercedes and Audi.

Compare the aerodynamics and the looks to the Opel

BMW seems strongly to need boost there car sales as that story can kill the reputation. Who likes to buy a cheat car ?

This is like you think a Pro Stock dragster is the same car your Car dealer offers as a Homologation edition.

Now go a step further an buy a Porsche 996 and a M3. Both cars have a similar price in germany. The drive up to the ring and shoot them out and see who will be ahead after 24 hours. On the long run the M3 will have to fight with a 10 year olde 968 CS as that is nearly similar fast but uses 5-10% less fuel.


Sure Porsche should have maybe invest more but the fact is that BMW pulled a secret weapon and din´t fight on a sportive way.

That car is doped and should run in a own class. Or Porsche goes the same way.

Grüsse

[andyu911]

I'm disgusted by those "rule maker" at ALMS. M3-V8??? what the hell is that? Production car? which BMW dealer has one for sale? They TOTALLY put the sportmanship aside and cheat WITH BMW. Yes, how come the M3-V8 doesn't compete with those monsterous Mercedes, TT and Opel in DTM? Big "L"
Andy

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Yes ask your BMW dealer !!

Why ? very simple. BMW knows that F1 is not from interesst in the uS neither any other european race series. They also fear to race with the big guys now. To much money and not competive.

So they startet in there. the engineblock is now a regular engine as it is also used in the M5 and Z8. They didn´t used direct the said engine. They "detuned" it. But if they where correct they should race with the M5 or Z8. Get some infos from your BMW dealer about the Z8. That car was so good that James Bond used it and it was splitet in two halfes...................... Porsche made that with the 928 to generate the 944 engine.

Most people will not understand whats up. They see a BMW making noses to Porsche and if you followed the rennlist boards they thought the M3 is the same they can buy at the dealer soon and where braging about the bad and slow Porsche.

Well if we try to find out witch is the best brew we shake the cans and pull the lever and the best beer will shoot wider then the others ?


@ Wayne Dang, the pics don't work

Sorry can´t understand it, could it be that this off topic thread has to much visits in the class ? I mean to much class ?

Grüsse

Next week I will try to find a good offlinedictionary. Sometimes I guess to much.

[MBlake]

Obin, Roland

I have just searched for some pictures to prove me right, but failed. Therefore I will concede on the gull-wing door thing :-)



I think last year's Opel cars used a normal door arrangement - therefore I was surprised as to why this 'DTM' based car did not.

However, it looks like the 2001 cars have the gull-wing arrangement - if it is good enough for them, then it is good enough for this car.

It actually sounds like this is better than the race-car as it is no longer constrained by air restrictors or tyre sizes - interesting!

However, could they ever shift enough of them at that price?? Maclaran F1's were not flying out of the factory in the end, Bugatti was sold off, Jaguar lost a heap on the XJ220 (there are still unsold cars available).

The closest cars in concept would be the Nissan R390 GT, the Toyota GT-One and the road version of the Mercedes LeMans car. All of these were very expensive, very low and based on contempory LeMans cars - I doubt the combined production volume exceeded 30 cars!

The Astra could not be used in any race series, and it still sort of looks like a hatchback with some go-faster kit. I doubt this will make it into production.

MG Rover, Ford et all struggled to the 6R4 and RS200 group B rally cars - and these were serious tools, that were on 'only' 944 to 911 type money!

------------------
Marcus

'73 S Targa

[This message has been edited by MBlake (edited 08-15-2001).]

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Well the first Gullwing had to use the doors as the tubular space frame forced very high sills.

Now the new Opel is just a Formula racer with a Astra body. It uses the lower body profile for full aerodynamics and a space frame.

The competition is hard and it is a bit like in F1. You go to the max and if someone protests you go a step back. DTM history has a history in protesting ( That killed the DTM togehter with the Aufrecht/Ecclestone deal ).

Now the new rules where made to suit the interessts from BMW but they threw the henkerchief at the first round.
One reason was that they allowed the Audi TT to join the field with a streched body and a slight larger wing to compensate the bad aerodynamics. The fact is that the Audi isn´t runed by the factory. Abt is something like Ruf to Porsche.

Most Racers can´t afford the high tech series and moved to the STAR V8 shiluette series.

As far I remeber one car has to be build and sold to a privat person or a private racer. This is prototype status in most race classes.

The engines must be 4L V8 and breath trough restrictors ( 28 mm per 4 cyl like on the F3 ). This will limit the revs to some 8000/min and make the engines cheaper are the tourqe makes them more drivable.
98 ROZ Pump gas and working catalyc converters. Rumors say they have close to 500 HP

The driver sits in a carbon cevlar monoque with controled deformation crash boxes. Those boxes must cover front and rear too. Just like in the F1. Brakes are carbon like in the F1.

Try that likk : www.dtm.de

The R200 had the same problem like the 959, they came to late. R 200 where sold off at 25% from the normal price ( In fact a full loaded Sierra Cosworth was same price level )

Right now the Renault Clio V6 Sport seem to jump into the R5 Turbo or Metro V6 gap. But in germany at the same price level you can get a slightly detuned Subaru WRX, Seat Leon Cupra or for a bit more the Audi S3.

The V6 clio is a RWD and tailhappy like the 911´s.

Grüsse

[mike944]

No way. That thing looks too much like a TOTALLY riced-out civic.

Mike

[MBlake]

Roland,

You have a breadth of knowledge as well as depth!!

Sie haben eine Weite und Tiefe der Kenntnis!!

With the Clio, I think that it must be bought on its looks alone. During its development (TWR I think), it gained a fair bit of weight. The performance is not as so far removed from the Clio Sport 172 that costs half as much! In the UK they wanted about £30,000 for them - a WRX Subaru (220bhp not 280) could be had for £8,000 less!

I loved the idea of the Clio, liked the look of it, but am a bit disappointed with the reality.

------------------
Marcus

'73 S Targa

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

No it is just what I can read and i know a bit about the backgrounds. It is not deep insider knowledge. Also we have some good pages and forums in germany. Not made for the "normal" user but for the enthusiasts.

The WRX is the best car for money. The boxer sounds familar and tuners lift 30% HP gains without coming into the danger zone ( in fact it is just the japan version ). Axles are more solid then fragile but still a usable layout. The only bad thing is the heavy overhung on the front and the large turn diameter on rallying.

The Renault Clio is just a marketing toy. It will give enough thrill for the money. This car is meant to follow more the R5 midengine or a Alpine 310 tradition. Now with the Vel Setis a other spectacular car is in the line nearly oppesite from the Clio. But the Megane or Laguna are just to boring for spiritet driving.

Time to look for a used Wiliams clio.

Grüsse