All the Presidents men ?

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

This is the battlefield you had read my american goverment bashing stuff.

Try to find something that proofs the difference.

I´m not asking for useless rethoric about your proud nation I say the "Bushes" have to much strings and fingers in there and I showed enough to ask question and say they have there share in the whole story.

Is there anything that speaks against my view ?

OK I know I´m german and should mind my buisness but be sure europe will get big trouble between the blocks.

Bu I had been at my brothers house who has a television and Bush didn´t looked very surprised when he heard it. Even knowing how many people got hit and more could be on the way even to hit him.

OK he is a cool guy and used to killing.

[Blackfoot]

you are one cold euro. the guy cares. do you?

[island911]

Roland you have brought many wonderful insights to this board. For that, I consider what you have to say, and work hard to not let myself misunderstand the point(s) you are going for. Furthermore, out of respect, I am responding to your bait of your various posts.

1) Conspiracies etc. – The people who are in power in most countries get there in large part by riding an opportunistic wave driven by forming alliances through triangulation. Countries are made up of these people. They are not products of well run conspiracies.

2) consider that EVERY US President has been more powerful than hitler; in that EVERY US President has had nuclear capabilities. While Bush is using “good & evil” in a similar fashion I don’t see it will have traction with the American populous. Rather it will be seen as hyperbole.
Beyond the posturing involved, there are the pragmatics; the paramount being survival. Let me put it to you this way; if I am out hiking and anger a mountain lion by being in its’ territory, I may indeed be very wrong in the eyes of the lion, so much so it attacks or even postures to attack. At which point I will only focus on hitting that target. . . hard. This is the situation Bush and the American people are in. One can get into the minutiae of past events, and yet you can not ignore the recent events. The western culture is under attack, with the goal of complete elimination.

[prattrc]

Sir,

You ask for evidence to refute the "facts" you have posted about the US. But all of your postings come from op-ed articles or legal positions, not facts. Truth itself is defined by those in power and is therefore a construct of opinion. Having bared the banality of "fact" I will give you my opinions.

1. The 200 US Presidential election: The result of this election was a tie. The two major candidates managed to fall within the margin of error of our voting/election system. The Supreme Court realized that subsequent counting and recounting would not improve the quality of the measure. I'm thinking Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle here. By the very act of counting, the numbers themselves are changed, and therefore the quality of the count is compromised. So the SC ended the count where it was and ended the election. There was no tampering, there was no vote fraud, there was no human rights violations. It was simply a tie. For every allegation of impropriety you spew against one side in this election, I can point out one for the other. Since you seem to side with Gore and you seem to believe that GW Bush and G Bush are one and the same, I'll point out that Gore's campaign manager's father is widely known to have defrauded the people of this nation in the Nixon/Kennedy election. Gore supporters extended poll hours in St Louis, MO in democrat-leaning neighborhoods and allowed polls to close in republican areas. Like I said, I can argue either side, so the argument itself is pointless. The bottom line is that this election was decided by a single state, and that state's election resulted in a tie. Dumb luck.

2. The Persian Gulf War: As far as I'm concerned, the war resulted when a nation hostile to American interests invaded our ally. Wait, that was WWII. No, it was the Gulf War. Who's like Hitler? Bush? The document you have explaining how the US pulled Iraq into war is a "devil-made-me-do-it" argument. Why does Iraq kill it's own people (men, women, and children) with mustard gas? Because the US incited an uprising. Why does Iraq invade Kuwait, its soldiers rape Kuwaiti women, murder Kuwaiti men? Because Kuwait used too much oil. And while it's acceptable for Iraq to settle such conflicts by means of massive military strikes, when the US (with the blessing of the international community) does the same, Iraq complains to the UN. When you play with fire, you get burned. Now, if Iraq had complained about Kuwaiti practices to OPEC, maybe the dispute could have been settled without bloodshed. Iraq decided to fight. If Iraq had complained to the UN about US policies regarding Kurds, perhaps the conflict could have ended without bloodshed. Iraq decided to gas its own people. We may have invited Iraq to duel, but Iraq chose the pistols.

3. Of conspiraces and such: Your condemnation of Mr. Bush based on his facial expression is very existential. Have you read Camus? In The Stranger, the protagonist is convicted of murder partially because he didn't show emotion at his mother's funeral. Absurd. Thanks for the laugh.

4. Increasing intelligence budgets: Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The only thing you can do, is get better. Money lost in previous budget cuts will go a long way in getting those agencies better at doing their jobs. Fire the Americans and replace them with Europeans? Are you kidding me? Europeans love our liberal, dove presidents, you hate our hawkish presidents. Well, the doves don't like to throw money at defense or intelligence. Our money starved intelligence community does manage to stop more plots than it misses, regardless. But even a man who can catch a bullet in his teeth has a hard time with a shotgun.

5. General thoughts on American evil and other values: Stop participating in our economy. Do not buy Microsoft, IBM, GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler, or any other of our products if you believe what you've been spreading here. I have to agree with Mr. Bin Laden on one point, if you play our game by paying taxes, buying our products and services, or letting us use your land for our military bases and our businesses, you are guilty of our crimes. Do not eat at McDonald's, do not watch our movies, do not use our technology. Otherwise, you are an accomplice to the crimes committed.

Other countries love to wallow in the wealth we provide, then run when time comes to defend our interests. If you do not accept your guilt, then we, your partners are also not guilty. If it were not for the US, Germany would be just like all of the former Soviet Bloc countries--poor, fractured, and weak. We and our allies helped rebuild West Germany after WWII, we kept you safe from Soviet domination, we fought on the diplomatic front to unite Berlin, and tear down that wall. When has Germany come to our aid? When has Germany helped keep me safe? When has Germany fought for my well-being? The United States is often accused of arrogance, but it is you who are guilty of that vice. You take your freedom and your wealth for granted, as if bestowed by the divine hand. When twilgiht comes for Germany and you look back on the beach of your history, the footprints you see are ours, we carried you through the hardest times. Ok, that may be a bit much, but damn, show some respect.

I don't believe for a second that the US is without error, but when you start throwing out this nonsense justifying acts of horror on our (and your) citizens as "eye for an eye", you really disgust me. You are not being the devil's advocate, here, you are being malicious, inconsiderate, and foolish. I hope that this has been an intellectual endeavor, and not an accurate representation of your views. I also do not think all Europeans (or all non-Americans for that matter) have view points like those I reject above. My generalizations were for emphasis only. Thanks,

Ray