High End Audio
 

I am thinking of re-newing my audio set up...

Currently I have a
Krell KAV 300cd
Krell KAV 500 power amp
Proton pre-amp
Martin Logan SL3 speakers

I know the weak link here is the pre... but the CD has started giving me problems when hot.. Basically after playing for a couple of hours the player would not read any CDs....
The problem corrects itself if I turn everything off for 40-50mins....

So I was thinking that maybe it's time to get something newer...

5-6 years ago I spent a lot of time reading and researching and I ended up with a set up that I really like... I started by choosing the SL3 and mated them with the Krell power amp....
For the CD player we had several different machines hooked up and eventually decided on the 300cd (over Linn, Copland, Krell 280cd etc).

But now I have no idea of what's out there... Anybody has experience with the new Martin Logan line up?
Which are the good cd players out there?

I'm more mid-fi (at best) than high end, but I never truly loved the Martin Logans. Great soundstage and detail, but I thought they lacked low end. Just to show my tastes, though, I have a set of Klipsch kg4s that I really love, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

In my mid-fi world, my old Rotel CD player seems perfectly adequate.

We need more audio threads here. Especially 2-channel stuff. I'm not much into home theater, but would like to learn more about high end 2 channel set ups.

Mike

Bell is the man for this topic...:D Here's a speaker line he once suggested to me:
http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/global.main

Re: High End Audio
 

Martin Logan makes some of the best speakers out there. They have just introduced the Summit and the Vantage (10k & 5K) - getting rave reviews.

Come join us at the Martin Logan owners site:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/

People seem to love their Chinese made Shanling CD/SDCD players. Check out the "members section".

I have an older McIntosh (Pioneer drive platter) with Wadia electronics CD player that is hanging in there. I plan to upgrade my turntable before replacing it - love to spin the vinyl.

I don't know if you want to seperate out or have seperated out your Home Theater from the two channel stereo, I did that and have no regrets. I went all tube last year - loving it.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...g_sacd-med.jpg

Dipolar speakers have the possibility of the bass wave being canceled out (when the back wave meets the front wave) as the wave length gets longer and lower. The hybrid speakers of Martin Logan go a long way towards adressing this issue, but room acoustics and treatments are still very important.

The two new hybrid speakers from Martin Logan (Summit and Vantage) have self powered bass drivers - this should quench any bass thrist out there.;)

http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/SUMMIT_290305.jpg

Aaahhh I love the MLs. I agree with the low end (I suppose the newer ones are better there) but the details and soundstage more than make it up for my personal taste...

I just checked Audiogon (great site for classifieds http://www.audiogon.com/)... there is a nice Krell SACD standard for sale.... Anyone had a chance to listen to it?

I have been very happy with my Audio Refinement PRE-2 DSP and and Multi-5 amp. It is a brand made by Yves-Bernard Andre'. I have no experience with their CD player, but I can't imagine that it is bad by any stretch of the word.

http://www.yba.fr/

http://www.audioplusservices.com/

Audio Plus distributes both Audio Refinement and YBA here in the US.

On a lower scale, I have a Marantz CD player that sounds great and has been quite good to me.

If you don't want to go over 10K on a transport or player but want real high end sound, look at Wadia, Meridian and/or Theta.

Having said that, I have a tweaked Sony ES SACD (different power supply, tubes, ...) which IMHO sounds as good as a Theta Data Pro + data linq + Gen V DAC combo a friend owns (and for a fraction of the cost).

Why not get a good reasonably priced transport and a high end DAC?

i'd second the wadia and rotel reccommendations.

i have b&w's running on tubes so i can't really give too much advice about the rest of the components.

It's got to look as sexy as it sounds.;)

http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MHCDT200
http://www.elusivedisc.com/images/mhcdt200closeup.jpg

Anyone here know where to get a cartridge for my Bang & Olufsen turntable?

I think the similar to P-Mount cartridges are just about imposible to come by - but I could be wrong. There are many different types so know what you are looking for.

I started a search for you here:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?forum=vinyl&searchtext=Bang+%26+Olufsen

Depending what you have, you should be able to get a new one with some on-line effort. Warning some of the threads in the link I gave are three years old - might want to register at the Tube Aslyum and start a new thread. Good luck.

Re: Re: High End Audio
 

I just signed up to the MartinLogan web forum... Very cool...

Re the Home Theater.... yeah I have a separate system for home theater. I originally bought the Proton pre-amp as part of an integrated system... but ended up splitting them....

So the pre is really what I need 1st... as long as I can figure out what is wrong with the Krell CD.

Re: Re: Re: High End Audio
 

I have an Italian GRAAF tube pre-amp which is hard to come by in this country, but if you stumble across one - pick it up.

http://www.graaf.it/welcome_english.htm

My favorite if I had the money would be something from Emotive Audio. I've never heard one, but researched the heck out of it - would fit my taste, maybe not yours.

http://www.emotiveaudio.com/

This one the "Sira":
http://www.emotiveaudio.com/sira-le.htm


http://www.emotiveaudio.com/Sira-L2.jpg

Like I said, it has to look as good as it sounds - you are buying "art" at these prices.:)

I know Graaf... I am Italian... I love them... I could not afford one when I lived there....

Could not agree more with you about the "art" comment... That's why I like the Krell KAV line, with the granite slab facia....

Will check emotive audio...

Unfortunately my "art" pieces have to be hidden these days... little fingers would love to play with papi's toys....

I purchase my WFB ONE used for about $1,000 or 1/3 its original cost. Found it posted on Audiogon buy a local high-end shop who also services it.

http://www.deopera.com/images/graaf_vfbonecover1.gif

I know they make pricier stuff, but are considered a real hi-fi bargain for what you get.

I did have a power fuse blow, but that's been my only problem. The Ferrari black paint is holding up, but I run it without the cover - runs a little hot with it on in my opinion.

I just have some old stereo equipment that I have had for years...it works just fine for me...So I don't know much about any fancy schmancy "High End" stereop equipment...I just have a McIntosh MR 78, Mac C-27 Pre amp, Mac MC 2125 Amp, Thorens TD 165 Turntable, and a pair of JBL L 65 Studio Monitors.

Now I guess I wouldn't mind owning one of Macs Tube Amp say a MC 2102....100 watts a Channel, or even one of their MC 275s...but I would also like an MC500 or MC 1000 to. http://www.roger-russell.com/aboutmc.htm

Dream amp thread:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=1407&highlight=McIntosh

Tabs, several people in the Martin Logan owners forum have recently purchased the MC2102 and love it. Too expensive for me, have to win the lotto or something.

.........and McIntosh is fancy schmancy .:D

They are also an Atlantis equipment rack dealer I see. Not bad stuff, I've been using one of their Reference series racks for the past seven years.

Hi guys. I thought I'd weigh in here. I'm the south-east regional for the co. above. Also an old time audio dog. If I can help with any info . . .

We were across the hall from ML at CES & they were launching some new speaker (although I didn't listen to it accept from the hallway). With HF impedance dips, ML's like an amp with a good power supply. Your Krell works well because it has decent current delivery. Krell does sound rather analytical at times however . . . balance it with a warmer CD player.

BTW we are discontinuing most Atlantis products . . . changing world.

Ian

Try a side by side track test with vinyl and CD - switch from an LP to a CD on the same track and you'll never buy another CD except to fill up an IPOD.

Spend a lot of cash on a CD player? - like running a 1600cc Honda Civic with a supercharger and Carlos Fandango wheels and the Spoiler off a GT3.

Get a Lynn Sondek turntable, get the LP's out of the attic and listen to real music for a change.

Ok I know this is big, forgive me, its smaller than a photo, skip past it if you will, but if it hits the spot, read it and ask yourself a few questions about how you listen to music - really listen that is.
I was convinced by ONE demonstration to go to LP's - and the guy who did it had great cd equipment and amps and cables and power supplies and preamps and room layout - even wove his own power cables and had the equipment fed from a seperate supply to all the other household stuff.

The LP track had depth - the singer leapt 6 feet towards me, the instruments were scattered in the space between the singer and the wall, and the sounds had expanded with bass notes and trebles which weren't in the CD track playing. The LP track lost the harshness of the CD rendition. The CD track was flat against the wall with no shape to the sound.

This guy expanded in words upon what my friend demonstrated for real on his equipment.

CD's suck.

guest opinion: michael tierney

1993. The digital age. If you want spirit, you'd better get rich, because you're going to have to pay for it. CD's have replaced records by 95%. You've finally paid off your $2,000 state-of-the-art stereo only to discover it's now outdated and on sale at K-Mart for $299. Well, at least you have your CD's, a costly yet priceless collection of musical recordings which produce perfect music and never wear out. Certainly, it is safe to say that these digitally mastered recordings are timeless and cannot be improved upon, right???
CD's and digital recording instruments of any kind kill music. As long as we listen to digital music of any kind, we no longer have music. What we do have is an incredible simulation, but, I repeat, it's not music—sort of like a fake diamond, only much more disastrous.
Long ago there was a time when the only way to experience music was to play an instrument or to be in the immediate presence of a musical performance. In those days, if you were cold, you'd start a fire, if you were hungry, you cooked some food, and, if your nose was too big, it stayed that way!
As recording techniques and players were invented and improved upon, people slowly got used to the idea of substituting a recorded performance for a live one. Surely, there were many skeptics at first, but, eventually, most agreed on the value of sound recording.
The stereo or turntable became the musical instrument, "a contrivance or apparatus for producing musical sounds." The sound recording became the musician.
Musical vibrations were recorded onto master tapes in the form of tiny metal particles. From this our records and tapes were made.
A record player, utilizing a diamond needle, receives impressions from the grooves in a record. This causes the needle to vibrate, much like a guitar string or violin string does. This vibration produces direct electrical impulses which eventually come out of your speakers as music.
The tape player, utilizing a magnetic head, reads the alignment of metal particles on the tape. This magnetic pull is what then creates electrical currents, which eventually become sound.
With these two forms of playback there is no separation from the initial musical vibrations. The original vibrations have maintained a continuous wave. Each impulse is the direct result of its predecessor. Although we're getting music which is second, third, even tenth generation, we are still getting music.
The nature of music is vibration. These vibrations create sound waves that then effect us emotionally, spiritually, intellectually and physically. Each of these sound waves produces a myriad of overtones which also effect us on very subtle levels. Whether you're listening to Punk Rock or Mozart, these sound waves and overtones give the music its life. For music to remain musical through the recording process, these sound waves must be continuous, flowing and organic. Analog recording and playback machines (records, tapes) retain these musical qualities. Digital does not.

The whole article is here ....
http://www.arancidamoeba.com/mrr/michaelcol.html

A

Loudspeakers -

Never liked the sound of electrostats, and the Low Freq. drivers and filter networks that the ML's use leave much to be desired IMO. If you have the chance, demo some sets by JM Labs (Focal), Wison Audio (uses Focal drivers), Merlin, Dynaudio, Totem Acoustic (uses Dynaudio drivers), Sonus Faber, Thiel, etc..


CD players/transports -

If you have $$ to burn, I would be looking at the Mark Levinson transports. The Proceed units (Mark Levinson "lignt") are also top shelf IMO. Others to consider might be Theta Digital, Merdian, Naim, Lexicon, etc...

Which version? Am a B&O freak myself, with 3 or 4 tuner/amp units in the house now, about 10 S-75 lab speakers, one set of Beolab 8000's that stand on the floor and three sets of Beolab 3500 speakers that hang on the wall. Yes, its overkill but sure sounds nice!

JA

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1137631838.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1137631873.jpg

For replacement needles, cartridges etc

Give Jerry a call or visit his site The Needle Doctor but I see that he doesn't have B&O.

Ian

Wow, you guys are way above me. I'm just mid-fi at the moment: NHT Evolution line, but I've got aspirations! :D

Interesting... before purchasing the SL3s I did demo some Sonus Faber, B&W and... I was not blown away...
Since the SL3s were the 1st highish end loudspeaker I listened to they probably influenced my ear ever since.... So maybe if I did everything again now (with a finer ear) the outcome might be dfferent...

The other issue I had/have is that the SL3s were pleasing to the boss' (read wife) eye...

As per CD player/transport when I purchased the Krell the Meridian was out of budget, I could not demo the Theta Digital and I preferred the Krell to the Naim... But again it was 6 years ago and I was buying second hand stuff...

Now the budget could be a little fatter... I could also use the Krell as a transport and get a top DAC...

I went Theta digital for a transport and used a seperate DAC. It seemed to smooth the slight harshness possible in the Krell amp. You might consider a decent transport and find a DAC that fits your taste and budget.

I am not up to date on home audio by any means, but

Years ago I went to hear Klipsch speakers at one of their then rare NYC & metro dealers in Queens. I needed an appointment and I was the only person in the studio. This studio had all the bells and whistles right down to the floor being floated on sand. I was out of my league for his services and couldn't even afford the speakers And everybody knew it. He answered all questions and played all the Beethoven I wanted for an hour . The audio was breath taking.

That led to me to realizing how sensitive audio is. It's more than just speakers.. even though I was still pumped up on Klipsch. That led me to obtaining most of Paul Klipsch's audio research papers at Bell Labs from the 1940s-1950s. Then to the subject of tailor processing the waves as per the room dimensions, etc. Then to Frank Loyd Wright's small audio chamber where sound is volume equalized through out the room by angling the walls, floor, and ceiling.

Anyone know about high end equalizers and processors?

Maybe not quite as high end, but my main stereo is simply a 1971 Marantz reciever my dad passed down. Beautful brushed metal, thing has never had a problem or failed to work. I simply clean the pots every few years and it still sounds great.

I have listened to *alot* of speakers over the years and the absolute best I have ever heard was a pair of Klipschorns back in about 1978. Nothing has ever compared to those.

I also agree that vinyl is better than digital. At higher volumes it is especially apparent. CDs become harsh and almost painful to listen to where vinyl stays warm and musical.

YMMV.

Mike

Just went to all Anthem stuff and love it.

http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/...M30News_01.jpg

http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/...ASeries_01.jpg

I am pushing about 1400 watts to my 7.1 system, and with the sub, I am pushing just about 2500 watts, with plenty of head room to spare.

Don't get caught up in looks.

Check out upscaleaudio.com, they have some great items.

When I bought the Krell KAV 500 power amp I did it for muli channel reasons (the krell had 5 separate channels)....
But after a while I decided that I didn't like the same set up for music and home theater...

Of the 5 channels on the Krell I am now using only 4 (bi-amping the MLs) and I bought a different system for the TV.

I am still not convinced abt using 1 system for all... Maybe I should just pop down to the listening room... MMmmm

i think i've posted this before but here's a guy who builds small batches of set tube gear.

i'm planning on using one of the zen amps (all 2 watts of it) for a "bedroom system"

http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm

I looked at the Krell stuff, it is really nice, but a little out of my price range. It sounded good in music and home theater. I would say your next step in Mcintosh.

Michael

Do you guys sit in one spot to listen to these perfect systems? I can't sit still very long, so I'm not sure I would see the benefits. In the house I rarely listen to music anyway. In the car, it's too noisy for highend.

I have never heard a really good system, so I have no idea what I'm missing I'm sure.

Like the knife thread, please educate me on how you enjoy this stuff! :)

Steve,

You can listen to my system. Not that it quite compares to some of the ones mentioned above.

same offer stands here as well steve.

for me, some stuff i notice and other i do not. cd players, amps, and speakers are definitely noticeable. cables- not to me, but there are people that swear they hear a difference. maybe if i had a better system i would too. anyway, if you're in the area let me know. we'll see what you think.

I don't have the perfect room, I don't have a single perfect positioned chair, I don't have a fine ear, I don't listen to classical music but my system has allowed me to enjoy my music a lot more.

In fact it changed the way I listen to music and somehow the music I listen to.

I found that because of the caracteristics of my system some type of music was more suited. And I found that sub-consciously I was playing that type of music more often. I would also try to buy similar stuff...

I'll go further... the quality of the recording even form the same artists varies from CD to CD.. I found that if the quality was poor (relatively) I tended to dislike the music (I'd play it less).

Before music was always in the background.. Now music takes centre stage, even when u are not all sitting in the perfect spot... For example imagine I'd been having a dinner party... you'd be having a conversation with someone when you'd stop to listen to what was played as if the artist had just entered the room.. you'd say "wait a minute, this is great stuff" of a record you'd never thought you'd like...

I am starting to like classical music too.. maybe I am just getting older... hahaha

Can my system be improved? Certainly, obviously, without a doubt. And with very inexpensive touches... like positioning the speakers a little better (mine having the big electrostatic panel are tricky to position vs the back wall) but that interferes with our everyday life too much.

I drew the line at a certain level because after that the returns/$$$ curve is really really steep. I also think the placebo effect might take place at some point but.... For example I started spending big $$$ on power supply cords/plugs etc... And to my ear the improvements were non existent so I stopped. I am sure someone else with a better ear could see the improvement.. but not me.. And since it is my house, my music and my $$$ I decided it was not worth it...


But do yourself a favor... go down to your local shop with a bunch of your fav CDs. Bring the music you like... Listen to them as you would at home... You do not need a $20k system to start with...

At this stage in my life, I have my money allocated to other things :)

Dave and Mike, I will take you up on your offers when it works for us. Thanks!