No more 9MM for Cops?

[kach22i]

I've heard that the cops in Ann Arbor are all switching from their 9MM's and getting certified on some called a "40". Is this happening everywhere? Is the 9MM no longer "the standard"?

So is it a ".40", or a 40 cal?

When they put a point in front of the number that means inches, right?

Looks to be right inbetween a 9MM and a 45.

New guns for 2006 (most come in 40).
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/new_products/newhg2006_020106/

I clicked one of the links and found this:
http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-polymer-Full-TP.html

9MM

40SW

45ACP

[cashflyer]

I know a few cops who have been using 40 for a couple of decades now. I don't think it's really a new persoanl choice, but maybe AA is making it a mandatory switch...

Colloquially, 40 = .40 = 40S&W = 40 cal.

9mm is around .35"
10mm is just over .39"
.40 = .40"
.45 = .45"

I remember 10mm getting a little interest, but I think .40 won out in popularity.

The advantage is more bullet weight and surface area = more "stopping power" and less "penetration".


Now this is assuming you are sure that AA is switching to 40s for handguns, and not just switching to 40s of malt liquor.

[Joeaksa]

.40 cal is a bit stronger than the old 9mm. 9mm is a descent round but just a bit small. Nice for CCW but otherwise just a bit too small.

For a while everyone jumped on the 9mm bandwagon because some pistols had "double stacked" magazines, which would then give the shooter up to 15 rounds in a pistol. Oh wow, more rounds. Well they found out that they did not pack the punch that the older .357/.38 or .45 did.

The LA PD SWAT team has now gone back to the old 1911 model pistol in .45 caliber, made by Kimber. Its just too good of a weapon and one shot will usually put a perp down.

Too many times LE have needed to shoot someone and found that 2-3 hits of 9mm and in some cases the guy is still coming at you. Not the case with a .40 or .45 cal pistol.

Joe A

[kach22i]

Originally posted by cashflyer
Colloquially, 40 = .40 = 40S&W = 40 cal.

9mm is around .35"
10mm is just over .39"
.40 = .40"
.45 = .45"

I have a little Kel-Tec P3AT (claimed to be the World’s Lightest .380 Auto Pistol) and was told by someone that a 9MM is the same diameter but the bullet is longer. Is that true?

[nostatic]

.357SIG seems to be the current darling with a lot of people. The "stopping power" argument has been beat to death online. I've read some of the original papers and have concluded that thre are some differences but with modern loads it isn't night/day. And what police use isn't necessarily the best choice for a private citizen. Different requirements.

[RickM]

Originally posted by kach22i
I have a little Kel-Tec P3AT (claimed to be the World’s Lightest .380 Auto Pistol) and was told by someone that a 9MM is the same diameter but the bullet is longer. Is that true?

.380 is also known as a 9(mm) short.

[RickM]

There is something to said for a 9mm round which travels at a very high velocity and basically punches a hole as opposed to a heavier, slower moving slug that tumbles into it's traget. IMO, there is a difference in stopping power.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Too many times LE have needed to shoot someone and found that 2-3 hits of 9mm and in some cases the guy is still coming at you. Not the case with a .40 or .45 cal pistol.

A friend of mine used to be in to that "Soldier of Fortune" stuff and had some magazines with stories of real police incidents and the crappy "stopping power" of the 9mm. One story that sticks out vividly is some guy who got out his car (after a prolonged police chase) and took something like 36 9mm hits as he walked around to his trunk, opened it and was pulling out a shotgun when a 12 gauge slug took him out.

Sheesh.

Ever watch those old "Faces of Death" videos? It takes alot of bullets to kill someone sometimes.

Mike

[Rick Lee]

Well, I shot a .40 for the first time last night. It was a tiny, compact Glock and it packed some punch. I have two .357SIG's, an H&K P7 in 9mm, a few .45's and a .44 mag. The .357SIG and .44 mag. kick the most. .44 mag. is only good for hunting and target shooting. Try 6 rds. of 180gr. .44 mag. and you'll know immediately how unrealistic the Dirty Harry movies are. That round would cut a person in half, go through a wall or two and kill the guy in the next house AND blow out the eardrums of the shooter.

The Secret Service is now using .357SIG, I believe the P229. It packs a LOT more punch that a 9mm and can also fit into high-capacity magazines, usually at 12 rounds. A .45 is probably the most reliable stopper for close range shooting. But .45's don't work for everyone. They are usually single-stack magazines up to 7 or 8. ParaOrdnance made the double stacks famous for .45's and I had one. But they are fat and bulky. 9mm is the cheapest ammo, you can fit 15-16 rounds in a normal magazine and it's just the most universal thing around now.

Luckily, a lot of the SIG's and Glocks can take interchangeable barrels now in .40, .357SIG or 9mm. Own two SIG's in .357 and you'll fast get tired of paying for the ammo. I am ready for a .40 or 9mm barrel for one of those guns.

[kach22i]

The .40 is a little bit wider than a .357, right?

So, which has a higher velocity, and which is more accurate in the right hands?

I'm thinking that if enough cops have the .40, prices on ammo will go down just as they once did for the 9MM.

I'm of course assuming that cops account for a fair amount of the ammo used in the USA. Is that a wrong assumption?

[Rick Lee]

I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt cops' ammo purchases have any effect on the market. One cop I talked to in KY told me he gets ONE single box of Federal Hydra Shoks per year to "practice" with. All the local ranges here offer discounts for LEO's because they know these guys get so little practice oppotunity from their police depts. When the US military switched from .45's to 9mm for sidearms to make everything compatible with NATO ammo, I'd say that made 9mm ammo a lot cheaper. Military sales are what keeps things cheap for us civilians, which is another reason I want an East German Makarov and a Russian MAK-90. The old Soviet and Chinese surplus ammo is dirt cheap.

[pwd72s]

Airline pilots who cockpit carry use .40 "Short & Weak" caliber...the guns are issued to them.

[RickM]

Originally posted by kach22i
The .40 is a little bit wider than a .357, right?

So, which has a higher velocity, and which is more accurate in the right hands?

This compares the two:

http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/40.357.compare.htm

[kach22i]

Originally posted by RickM
This compares the two:

http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/40.357.compare.htm

Considered equals, but the author favors the 357 SIG.

Thanks, but which will have the cheeper and more widely available ammo in the short and long run?

[Rick Lee]

And for your visual pleasure....

[kach22i]

I remember that image and the following conversation in the last related thread on this topic. Good information.

[vash]

bullet placement....

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I thought the .40 was less accurate since it tumbles whereas the 9mm spirals.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by RickM
.380 is also known as a 9(mm) short.

Correct and there are two flavours of 9mm. One is normal 9mm and the other is 9mm "kurtz" (German for short) which is the same size bullet as 9mm but with a shorter cartridge, meaning less powder.

Walther and other auto's use 9mm, .380 and such. Very nice carry weapons.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by IROC
A friend of mine used to be in to that "Soldier of Fortune" stuff and had some magazines with stories of real police incidents and the crappy "stopping power" of the 9mm. One story that sticks out vividly is some guy who got out his car (after a prolonged police chase) and took something like 36 9mm hits as he walked around to his trunk, opened it and was pulling out a shotgun when a 12 gauge slug took him out.

Sheesh.

Ever watch those old "Faces of Death" videos? It takes alot of bullets to kill someone sometimes.

Mike

Mike,

Have heard the same several times. Perps on Angel Dust (PCP) or whatever just kept coming when hit with a 9mm, while a .45 or shotgun put them down. I like stopping power when its needed!

Joe A