Polybutylene pipe

[Paul T]

Anybody here have any experience with PB pipe. I'm in the process of buying an 18 yr old house that has some PB in it. I appears as though the entire first floor and outside faucets have all been replaced with copper, but there is still PB supplying the 2 bathrooms on the second floor. The home inspector flagged it, I had never heard of it before.

A quick web search turns up some horror stories, but I wonder if these are blow out of proportion by the "PB remediation experts" and the class action that was filed. Some articles suggest it is chlorine in public water supplies that is the issue and if you have clean well water it's not a problem. I've seen plenty of flooded homes from burst copper piping also. For the record, it "looks" good and the homeowner has reported zero leaks in 18 years, and there is no evidence of any leaks either (PA has mandatory full disclosure laws).

I think I'll replace it either way for peace of mind, but I'd like to know if I'm sitting on a time bomb here. Any experience or stories appreciated....

[rcecale]

Not sure if this constitutes "experience" with the stuff, but....

The main line running from the city's water meter up to my house busted a little over 2 years ago. Nice little flow of water coming up through the driveway, down to the road and to points unknown.

Turns out it was that nasty blue poly. I have no idea what caused the leak, as it busted underneath the driveway.

Replaced it with 1" copper and haven't had a problem since.

Oh, the house it about 15 years old, fwiw.

Randy

[nineoneone]

I worked with some years ago and from what I remember it was the crimp ring type that gave the most problems. Two types, nut ,cone and washer and or crimp ring. Nut ,cone and washer is like a compression fitting and the crimp was a copper ring around the pipe with a smaller piece of pipe inside the pb pipe to keep it from crushing. The outer ring was crimped on and that was the problem. No one could figure out how much pressure was needed Not to break the interior pipe, thus leaks... nut cone washer held up good. I thought the restriction was on underground pb. It had a tendency (sp)to move and come apart under ground.

[scottmandue]

I find it makes the weed taste terrible.

[turbo6bar]

I agree with 911s assessment. The problem is in the connection.

[motion]

Paul,

I have a little experience with it, since I've purchased two homes recently with polybutelane. A half-fix is to replace the connections with copper. The best fix is to replace everything with copper. I have no idea if there's really any truth to the hysteria, but it does put you in better bargaining power with the seller.

In my cases, I had quotes from 3 plumbers on each property, took the midline amount and had the seller deduct that amount from the purchase price. On a two-story home with 2 bathrooms, the amount was around $8,000 to completely replace the pipes and fittings with copper.

So, you should be able to get the price of the home down a bit, then its up to you to replace or not.

[911boost]

I had a friend purchase a house with PB piping. I re-plumbed the whole thing for him in copper for not that much $.

Bill

[Bill Douglas]

Polybutene-I is very good. It has a life expectancy of over 50 years. The old crap, odinary Polybutene, is bad news and should be replaced imediately - other than having it burst inside walls and ceilings.

The old stuff is generally colored black and the new stuff grey.

[Paul T]

Thanks for the responses guys, I am definitely going to use this to try and get a few grand knocked off our agreed upon price. Luckily the extent of the PB is only the 2 upstairs bathrooms and I've done quite a bit of copper myself so I think I'll just replace with copper - though I'm looking at PEX also. I just hope PEX doesn't become another PB in 10 years...

FWIW, this place does have the crimp type connections, but with the metal fittings, which I'm told are better. It's been leak free for 18 years and it looks like I'm going to replace it right away just for peace of mind so hopefully it holds our for a few more months.

On a related note, anyone have one of these ? I'm thinking of putting one in for insurance, PB pipe or not. My wife and I are both away from home for long periods and the thought of a burst pipe flowing uninterrupted gives me chills...

[Rick Lee]

Paul, take it from someone who learned the VERY HARD WAY. Don't buy it, or make sure it's replaced before you close!!!!!!!!

I was 25 when I bought my first townhouse in 1996, which was built in 1984. I knew nothing and my home inspector and realtor were in cahoots with one another. House had polybutalene pipes. I had one small leaks in my ceiling, which I caught right when it happened, had a plumber come out, cut come drywall and replace the joint. $60, no biggie. Then I started reading up on this and got scared. I did not have the money to repipe the whole house. I filed a complaint with the ombudsman from the Shell class action settlement fund. They came out, took photos, looked around and said I had to have had two "occurances" within a certain time period, blah, blah. Bottom line was the deadline had passed. I was screwed. I got a guy from Pulte, the original builder, to come out. They said no dice. While I tried to decide how to come up with the money to fix this, I had a catastrophic burst.....while I was in Europe!!!!!

I got to Dulles Airport, turned my cell phone on and heard a frantic voicemail from a roommate. I got home and my house was a SWAMP!!!! A joint had let go in a downstairs bathroom around 3:00am. My roommate did not wake up until about 7:00am. By then, the downstairs was flooded. Luckily, all my guitars hang on walls like in a music store and my expensive amp was on caster wheels, so they didn't get wet. The damage was bad.

USAA ended up paying around $8k for the carpets and drywall and a few damaged belongings. This was a pittance compared to what some others have had happen. I could go on, but bottom line is polyb. is time bomb plumbing.

I paid about $4400 out of pocket to have some guys come in a replace it all with copper. They cut small holes in a few walls, pulled everything out, installed copper, patched and painted and I couldn't tell they had ever been there. Since my townhouse was small, this was not too expensive. In a real house, the repair won't be cheap and the damage can be ruinous.

[Paul T]

Rick, that's exactly what I'm afraid of! Like I said though, it's only one run up to the second floor, 90% of the house is already copper, so I don't think I'll let it stop me from buying the house - but I will replace it the first week that I'm in there, and I'll fight to get some $$ reduction from the sale price. Sorry to hear what happened to your place, I can only imagine how devastating that can be!

[Rick Lee]

Paul, it only takes one joint to let go to completely ruin your entire house and belongings. It's a matter of when, not if. This stuff doesn't hold out much more than about 17 yrs. before it starts causing problems. And it's not just joints. Well, it was in my case. But the ombudsman told me about hairline cracks/splits too. Can't stress this enough. I worried about it a LOT and having it fixed really made me sleep better at night.

[Paul T]

I know what you mean, I'm worried about it alot too! The water is turned off now and I luckily will have a few weeks overlap between moving into the new place and moving out of the place I'm in now - so maybe I'll get this done right away before we even move in. I can do the job myself so cost should not be too bad, just my time. I'd rather do it myself at this point than force the sellers to do it - I'm kind of picky about work that is done and if I forced them to fix it before settlement they would just get the cheapest place they could find. If I can get a few grand off and do it myself I'll be happy...

[Rick Lee]

Well, that sounds like the best way to do it.