See, it's people who actually get out there and help (like Supe and his privately funded program) that really make a difference, not some government "social engineering" bureacrat throwing money and red tape at everything.

Here's some "social engineering" that even a Republican like me can agree to. Give tax breaks for volunteering time to help out with specific social programs, like Supe's or Habitat.

Interested to hear your reply to all this, Supe.

I'm not trolling, RallyJon. At least not this time. For some of us, this is more of a discussion than a game or communist plot.

Tim, et. al., you are making my point. Fact is, both libs and cons desire some sort of social control. Our vision for America is shared. The differences are in the details. The tactics. And they are smaller than we perhaps realize.

Leaving people to die in the streets would present a danger to us. Even if we were totally selfish, our personal security is at stake. And we would pay the costs anyway. cheaper to pay them up front.

But we are not selfish. We are generous. Charitable. Christian. American. Yes, I am proud. And some of us understand that it's not as simple as just eliminating welfare. Making handouts harder to get is a step. When these people turn toward the light and have a desire to achieve, something has to be there to prepare them, to light the path, to shepherd.

Again, as I say, we are not very far apart on this one......and this is one of those issues that presents the (false) appearance of great distance between us. We can break this (welfare) cycle. But not by simply withholding benefits. In fact, as most of us know, the stick does not work as well as the carrot.