saddam on trial

[stevepaa]

Can someone concisely lay out what Saddam is being tried for, because reading the information sure has me confused? When I first heard that he was being tried for massacre of people in a village after a failed assassination attempt, I had visions of his guards rounding everyone up, digging a mass grave and killing everyone.

Well, now the documents presented by the prosecution show that 50 may have died during interrogation, and 50 others were found guilty by their court system and executed. The documents show perhaps 4 were later ruled to be innocent.

Is this really the right case to be trying him on to show how evil he was?

[Mulhollanddose]

I hear ya Steve...If you watched American media you would have no idea what a monster Saddam was, in fact you would think America was the real monster and Bush a liar who had a vendetta against Saddam because he tried to kill his daddy.

Mass graves

[stevepaa]

Well, the last part is true, unfortunately.

However, why this case. The evidence from the prosecution appears very weak. Isn't there better evidence from the slayings that led to all the mass graves?

I think we will lose on this one.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Well, the last part is true, unfortunately.

However, why this case. The evidence from the prosecution appears very weak. Isn't there better evidence from the slayings that led to all the mass graves?

I think we will lose on this one.

It wouldn't surprise me steve...Although I think Saddam will see a bullet or 100.

[kach22i]

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Document 27: Department of State Cable from Kenneth W. Dam to the United States Interests Section in Iraq. "Rumsfeld Visit to Iraq," December 7, 1983.

Reports that Donald Rumsfeld wants to visit Iraq during his tour of Middle Eastern countries as an envoy for President Reagan, but notes that he does not think his visit will be worthwhile unless he meets directly with Saddam Hussein.

Document 46: United States Embassy in Austria Cable from Helene A. von Damm to the Department of State. "Iranian War Wounded in Vienna," March 13, 1984.

The U.S. embassy in Austria tells the State Department that a Belgian laboratory found residual amounts of mustard gas and mycotoxin in the blood of Iranian war casualties brought to Vienna for medical treatment.

Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.




http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html

1983

* A SD report concluded that Iraq continued to support groups on the SD’s terrorist list.[5]

* Iraq reportedly began using chemical weapons (CW) against Iranian troops in 1982, and significantly increased CW use in 1983. Reagan’s Secretary of State, George Shultz, said that reports of Iraq using CWs on Iranian military personnel "drifted in" at the year’s end.[6] A declassified CIA report, probably written in late 1987, notes Iraq's use of mustard gas in August 1983, giving further credence to the suggestion that the SD and/or National Security Council (NSC) was well aware of Iraq's use of CW at this time.

# Analysts recognized that "civilian" helicopters can be weaponized in a matter of hours and selling a civilian kit can be a way of giving military aid under the guise of civilian assistance.[8] Shortly after removing Iraq from the terrorism sponsorship list, the Reagan administration approved the sale of 60 Hughes helicopters.[9] Later, and despite some objections from the National Security Council (NSC), the Secretaries of Commerce and State (George Baldridge and George Shultz) lobbied the NSC advisor into agreeing to the sale to Iraq of 10 Bell helicopters,[10] officially for crop spraying. See "1988" for note on Iraq using U.S. Helicopters to spray Kurds with chemical weapons.

# Later in the year the Reagan Administration secretly began to allow Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt to transfer to Iraq U.S. howitzers, helicopters, bombs and other weapons.[11] Reagan personally asked Italy’s Prime Minister Guilio Andreotti to channel arms to Iraq.[12][7]

From I could find the international community knew gas was being used in the Iraq/Iran war.............but it was not until 1988 using US helicopters that Saddam used gas on the Kurds.

Recap:
Iraq/Iran war (1980-1988).

[Rick Lee]

Steve, can you imagine the outcry in any western country if another western head of state were responsible for 50 people who died during interrogation and another 50 executed for an assassination attempt, even IF they were ALL guilty?

Somehow, Middle Eastern despots just don't measure up to our low expectation of them.

I doubt there will be too many memos in Saddam's own handwriting, ordering his folks to be tortured and exectued. It's really amazing how lefties (like Kachi) try to diminish the monstrosity of Saddam's crimes by pasting the 20+ yr. old photo of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand. My mild case of jock itch is more relevant to the discussion.

[on-ramp]

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose
... Bush a liar who had a vendetta against Saddam because he tried to kill his daddy.

now you're coming around.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
It's really amazing how lefties (like Kachi) try to diminish the monstrosity of Saddam's crimes by pasting the 20+ yr. old photo of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand. My mild case of jock itch is more relevant to the discussion.

Actually if you clicked any of the links I provided or read any of the quotes I captioned, you may of learned that Saddams use of gas preceeded US helicopter sales in the early 1980's. These same helicopters were used in 1988 to kill Kurds (spray gas/chemicals). The photo was there to illustrate the relationship between US and Iraq in that era - I can only guess at what you are itching - my guess is your brains.

Saddam was an evil, evil man..............that held the different tribes in Iraq together by use of fear and death.

[Rick Lee]

Actually Kach, none of that matters. It doesn't even matter if we sold Iraq the ropes they use on their gallows. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the man was a murderous tyrant who should get a taste of his own medicine, which would go a long way in closing that sad chapter in Iraq's history.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
the fact that the man was a murderous tyrant who should get a taste of his own medicine

Now you know how myself and the rest of the world feels about Bush. Bush and his cronies have now murdered and killed just as many Iraqi's as Saddam did. The world is short on justice, always has been.

[Rick Lee]

Go away troll......

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Go away troll......

The last gasp of the loser running out of ideas.

Found this the other day, found it to be interesting.

Policy on trolls
For every blog, there is a troll,
And a time for every trolling in the blogiverse:
A time to read, and a time to ignore;
A time to provoke and a time to rebut;
A time to scorn, and a time to revile;
A time to rebuke and a time to denounce;
A time to revise, and a time to delete;
A time to warn and a time to ban.

[Rick Lee]

Ok, I'll let you bait me one more time. Rest assured, I have plenty of facts and ideas on this topic, but they mean nothing to knee-jerk Bush-haters like yourself. They are only met with more nonsense about Bush's "crimes", because they're obviously so much worse and in larger numbers than Saddam's, which was the original topic. Don't forget, Bush was responsible for WWII as well. So that clearly makes him worse than Saddam.

[kach22i]

Ricky, I could post a list of evil tyrants - all of them in one way or another; election stealers, thieves, liars, war starters, mass murders, racist and the like. GWB would not make the top ten, but that's just because the world is full of so much scum - not because GWB is a bastion of salvation himself.

[stevepaa]

Rick, I can't use western ideals as a ruler. The US has capital punishment, nearly all other western nations don't. It seems perfectly reasonable for then to execute people for these offenses from their perspective. Saudi Arabia does it all the time

And if you want to hold Saddam responsible for deaths during interrogation, one would have to hold Bush culpable also.

I just think this case is not the right case to be trying to nail him on. This case is a losing situation for the US.
We need to find evidence for crimes against humanity charges for Saddam. Or a trail leading back from mass graves to his doorstep.

[Victor]

Steve, here's the latest news.

Saddam admits to razing farms
Email Print Normal font Large font March 2, 2006 - 7:11AM
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AdvertisementSaddam Hussein has admitted giving orders that led to the execution of Shiite Muslims in the 1980s, but justified the punishment as his right as Iraq's president, saying: "Where is the crime?"

Saddam made the admission, along with another that he ordered farmland to be razed, during his second day in court this week on charges of crimes against humanity.

In hours of proceedings, prosecutors read out documents, showed satellite images and played audio tapes in an attempt to link Saddam to the execution of 148 Shiites from Dujail after an attempt on his life in the village in July 1982.

A US diplomat familiar with the court said Saddam's statements were damning evidence that could lead trial judges to decide there is sufficient evidence to issue a guilty verdict.

"I referred them to the revolutionary court according to the law. Awad was implementing the law, he had a right to convict and acquit," Saddam said, referring to his co-accused Awad al-Bandar, the former chief of the Revolutionary Court.

"I razed them ... we specified the farmland of those who were convicted and I signed," said Saddam, who faces hanging if convicted.

"It's the right of the state to confiscate or to compensate. So where is the crime?"

Describing how gunmen fired machine guns as his motorcade drove through the town during a visit, Saddam said: "I saw the bullets with my own eyes."

The trial, which began last October, was adjourned until March 12, the latest in a series of adjournments in the stilted process that some international observers have criticised.

Saddam was uncharacteristically subdued in court as chief prosecutor Jaafar al-Moussawi presented what he said were documents containing Saddam's handwriting, showed aerial pictures of fields laid waste around Dujail and played an audio tape of Saddam in discussion with a Baath party official.

On Tuesday, Moussawi presented what he said was a death warrant signed by Saddam.

In previous proceedings, the judge heard testimony from witnesses recounting how they were tortured by Saddam's aides, but was shown no direct evidence linking Saddam to the crimes.

Prosecutors hope the Dujail case will prove more clear cut than other, more complex cases involving charges of genocide where Saddam's responsibility may be more difficult to prove.

Defence counsel have argued that Saddam, a Sunni who justified his harsh rule by the need for national unity, was Iraq's president at the time and that he acted within the law.

What we saw today was not Saddam admitting guilt, but admitting to the fact that he acted in accordance with his official duties and powers," said Nehal Bhuta, a legal expert from Human Rights Watch who has been monitoring the case.

Following a week of sectarian violence that has killed hundreds and pitched Iraq toward civil war, Saddam used an opportunity to address the court to recall the unity of Iraqis in the war he waged against Iran in the 1980s.

The former leader's trial has been overshadowed by fears that Iraq's sectarian tensions are out of control, but Saddam, who has dominated court proceedings in the past with lengthy tirades against the US-backed tribunal, spoke of unity.

"Saddam didn't win in 1988 but the Iraqi people won ... Arab and Kurds and all other religions and sects," he said.

"The people must be united," he said. "All religions, all ethnic groups."

When chief judge Raouf Abdel-Rahman, a Kurd who has been strict with the eight defendants, politely asked Saddam to finish, Saddam said:" Give me some time, I have been your president for 35 years. I am still the president of Iraq according to the constitution."

Saddam's calls for Iraqi unity come a week after suspected al Qaeda militants bombed a Shiite shrine in Samarra, sparking reprisal killings against minority Sunnis and stalling U.S.- backed efforts to forge a government of national unity that would include Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds.

The trial has been marred by the killing of two defence lawyers, the resignation of the previous judge and concerns by international human rights groups who say violence in Iraq makes a fair trial impossible.

Reuters

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by kach22i
Now you know how myself and the rest of the world feels about Bush.

Ya, worldwide socialists and their propaganda arms, including socialist friendly American mainstream press, does dislike us. You can blame their own corruption, and yours, for that interpretation. Easy image to manufacture when you have an activist leftist press feeding lies to the world about our intentions and motivations...You think American press is good at manipulating the public, you could imagine how easy it is for state controlled world media to use seditious American press for their own aims.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Can someone concisely lay out what Saddam is being tried for, because reading the information sure has me confused? When I first heard that he was being tried for massacre of people in a village after a failed assassination attempt, I had visions of his guards rounding everyone up, digging a mass grave and killing everyone.

Well, now the documents presented by the prosecution show that 50 may have died during interrogation, and 50 others were found guilty by their court system and executed. The documents show perhaps 4 were later ruled to be innocent.

Is this really the right case to be trying him on to show how evil he was?

It's going to be a lot easier to convict George W. Bush of mass murder because he's admitted to the crimes in public many times.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by fastpat
It's going to be a lot easier to convict George W. Bush of mass murder because he's admitted to the crimes in public many times.

Typical Boothe'ist. Bush is a liberator and is doing what needed to be done, which is mass murder terrorists.

[on-ramp]

Bush is a murderer of American soldiers, innocent men/women in Iraq and a thief of the dollars we tax payers send to our government.

He declared war on a nation that posed absolutely no clear and present danger to this nation. none. Iraq posed no clear and present danger and was never an imminent threat....he knew this but declared war anyway.
he had no legal right to do this.

Bush needs to be tried for his crimes in front of an international court.

what's good for the goose...