Drifting vs. Turning: which is faster?
 

OK, *I* know the answer. But I can't seem to get it across to some riceboy fans with whom I am regrettably acquainted.

So far I've quoted things like coefficient of static friction vs. that of kinetic friction, etc., but that has fallen on deaf ears. Their contention is that drifting allows you to maintain a higher entry speed and thus "carry that through"...or something.

Never mind that there are no *legitimate* road races (as far as I know) where drifting is intentionally done. If it improved corner speed, wouldn't F1, ALMS, DTM, etc. drivers all do it??? This argument has fallen on deaf ears as well. Apparrently "drift races" are now the sole venue of top automotive skills and talent. Whatever.

So can one of you automotive geniuses help me out here? My physics 101 is 1990's vintage.

You're right that the closer the coefficient of static friction is to kinetic friction, the less sliding hurts. Even on loose surfaces, the #1 concern is getting the power down as early as possible. A big sideways powerslide is a waste. Rotating the car during braking is very effective and costs nothing.

For road and track driving, if you know the line, drifting is always slower. Even in tarmac rally, where the teams have notes and only one run through the course, they drift very little. Again, the occasional exception is getting the car rotating on a tight corner. On the street, there are hairpins that would never make it on a race track.

"Drifting" is not racing - it's a judged event. Like figure skating and ice dancing.

Well. .. . sprint cars drift to win.

Then again they have more power to weight than even F1 cars.(IIRC)

Tell the ricers, that when they approach F1 power to weight, you'll revisit the question. . . .but for now; STFU. :D

Wouldn't coming out of a drift require more energy and produce more friction to obtain control back than a turn? Seems like during the drift speed is not compromised but to gain control back it would be. Then again, I have been known to be wrong, can't remember when, but I have been.

Thom's got it right!

You're making it too complicated, have your buds sit down and watch some real racing and note how the guy who "drifts" gets passed.

Okay I'll play.
I agree with you 100%.
Brake on the one side of the track, turn into the apex, and wind out to the exit off the corner. One turn of the steering wheel should do it.
But. last year at Shannonville motor sports track in Canada, our UCR Porsche club rented the track for the day.
Afterwards we had trackside food and beverages with our entertainment being that the track was now rented to a "bunch" of assorted makes of cars.
The front wheel drive cars would hang on to the outside or the corner until they could see the exit, turn hard and drift almost to the exit.
At first we thought they were nuts and going to crash.
Then we realized they were putting out great laps. Some better than ours.
So maybe there is more than one way.

Supermoto bikes use a form of drifting or "backing it in" to increase corner speed. They actually drift the rear out to change the angle of attack entering the corner. It IS faster than holding a line.

Whoah, now, supermoto != car.

911 Rod, I agree. That makes sense, since you're not losing traction on the drive wheels when you drift a FWD car. But find me a roadracer that uses FWD...

For that matter I doubt AWD would be better either. I don't know of any AWD systems that will transfer 100% power to either end (which you would need if your back tires were completely loose).

RWD rules the road race for a reason, and drifting a RWD car takes traction away from the drive wheels, slowing the corner exit...

I went to Bristol TN to watch the Nascar guys one year and they had a sprint track car come out and do a demo. He slid that thing sideways all around the track and was several full seconds faster than the nascar guys. Apples to oranges I know, but interesting. Is it possible that there is a potential for faster cornering speed using this method on big sweepers but that tire wear is an issue? Why do the rally car racers do it?

Backing it in? Watch the last 20 sec of this clip. Not sure it's the fast way through, but...

http://www.valledaostamotori.com/Video/Galli/gigi_6.wmv

I'm sure it's just the kid in me but, it sure looks like a lot of fun!
Nailing a corner is a great feeling too.
If you drive a snowmobile you know a sled that handles like it's on rails is the quickest, but what a blast sliding around every corner and making a big mess of the snow. :D

The theory is still the same (sacrificing traction for angle of attack).

I'm not saying I know the answer, just pointing out some success of the theory in other sports.

Here is a supermoto vid that shows some of it, (and just some of these bikes advantages :))

http://couaproduction.lamayonnaise.com/video/carole.mpg

the physics of it all are quite simple; if the car can produce more straight-line G's (at the cornering speed) than G's produced by cornering (line holding) then drifting may be the fastest way around a corner.

. . .until the tires burn up. :)

Thanks for putting it succinctly!

LOL I made the same point but apparently that's not germane to the discussion....

There was a video going around of a guy in a Mitsu EVO or somesuch. He was doing the rally-style hang-the-ass-out turns during a DE.

It ended badly.

I thought I had it on my site, but I can't find it.

i saw a video where they talked about this. i think wayne rainey started it all. very cool.

On the topic of tires burning up, there was a MotoGP rider (McCoy I believe) who use to smoke his rear tire into and through the turns... defying common practice, but he was fast...and his tire wear didn't seem to be much worst than the rest of the field. Apparently the melting rubber gave him an adhesion advantage.

There was some cool footage of him in the "Faster" DVD. With a brief explanation of how it worked for McCoy.

Thom, I remember that one, pretty dang funny. :D

All hovercraft can do is drift through a turn. The first guy to figure out how to get one of these things to actually turn is going to win a lot of races.:)

Drifting the way the kids are doing it these days is not the fastest way around a track, but I have read someplace, maybe Frere's "Sports Car and Competion Driving", that in days gone by a 4 wheel drift was the fastest way around the track. Like in the old mid 60's pre aero grand prix cars. You actually wanted a small drift angle and it would produce faster lap times, but it had to do with big sidewall high slip angle tires. He then goes on to say that because of tire technology and construction that it's no longer the fastest way around.

I wouldn't try to "educate" your friends. They obviously aren't going to listen.

Besides, it's more fun knowing you're smarter than they are. They don't have to know it too.

One of the major reasons F1's do not drift, is that the aerodynamics of the car are designed for the car to be aimed straight into the air for maximum downforce, and downforce provides a major part of an F1 grips. When they slide it sideways, they loose their carefully designed aerodynamics, and thus traction.

What works is a game of aerodynamics, tires, suspension, surface, power, chassis, almost everything.

My race car has a tread orineted towards longitudal forces, four wheel drive, I typicly pop the brakes, put it a little sideways, hold the steering into the corner, and stay hard on the throttle all the way through, keepting it a few degrees sideways.

Doesn't work on every corner, higher speed corners I prefer to keep the car fairly straight, main reason is at higher speeds, there is less torque at the wheels. I've trippled my power recently, and have not taken it to a track yet, so we'll see how I treat things then.

A lot of racing series tire, chassis, and bodies, are designed around keeping the car fairly neutral. Go back a few decades ago, and this may not always be the case. Such as the late 1950's F1's.

Come to think of it, don't all those dirt track racers drift through the turns?

http://www.proimagesonline.com/IMG_1088.jpg

http://www.ascsracing.com/gallery/travistulsa073005.jpg

Key point: on a dirt track the coefficient of static friction is very close to that of kinetic friction (see the first two posts). When that is the case, there are many more options for going fast no matter which way you're pointed.

LOL, like knobbies or paddles! :D

http://www.mudmissile.com/smith060405_oc_05.jpg

Then there's always...

http://66.34.72.138/gallery/image/3941.JPG

Drifting today seems to be more controlled over steering.

The front tires on the car above are not drifting, they appear to be counter steering a power slide.
Perhaps these cars for brief moment at track out actually are in a classic 4 wheel drift.
Those cars look like they transfer wieght like a city bus at rush hour. Lots of lean.

That said the optimized traction slip angles for slicks on an asphalt road course is around 5 degrees. Exceed that and you are just losing traction and melting tires.
With slicks the real skill in corners is to maintain the 5 degree slip angle. Basically a 5 degree 4 wheel drift.

When you get it just right, you barely need to countersteer at all.

http://www.rallystuff.com/images/sandblast02-ken2.jpg

Thanks for the information.

Now a chance to post some Lancia Stratos rally cars getting all dirty and muddy.

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2005/motor_show/geneva/preview/holistic/1702/stratos.html

Full-on drifting is not the fastest way around a turn on a road course. This question should be asked in the autoX/racing forum.