German Flag Relation

[kach22i]

I don't want to hi-jack anybody's thread with cool car pictures, so I'm starting a new thread.

I said:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=270119&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

The sad part for Germany is that Nationalism or National Pride is hard to seperate out from fascism of the past.

I've been told that Germans are not allowed to display a German flag inside of their own country, but may do so outside of their own country for sporting events.

Can you even imagine this happing to the American flag?

Perhaps this sounds a bit Sci-Fi, so I'll bow out by saying - nice car pictures.

There seems to be some skepticism by those less traveled about the above comment, and I'll admit I've never been to BMI/Germany myself.

I do know it is a country of strict rules, laws, regulations and precision, with a good dose of personal responsibility thrown in for good measure.


http://www.german-flag-history.com/german-flag-relation.html

German Flag Relation
This article deals with the relation Germans have to their flag.

This is quite interesting, especially for Americans who are used to see their flag everywhere.
In Germany it's a really different thing. If you travel through the country, you won't see any (or not many) German flags. You probably wonder why. Maybe you won't believe but this goes back to World War 2, even if this war has been fought 60 years ago. The Germans still don't show any pride of their country.

If you fly a flag as a German, other people would look at you and probably think you're a Nazi or some kind of a rightist. That's simply because they're not used to see national flags, but at demonstrations of rightist.

You can't really explain it, it's just a different feeling that Germans have about their country.

They also think that the Americans are strange because of their national pride. They don't understand why we always fly our flags. Some Germans, when they travel to the US, even feel offended when they see our flag so often.

Another interesting thing is that if a German has a flag or so on his car and drives through another European country, other Europeans point at them and still get mad.

How long will this last? Another 60 years?

If you have comments to this article or maybe more information, feel free to contact us.

Note-1: I may need to clarify that I originally intended to make a casual cultural observation and not a political debate or legal argument.

For reference:

http://www.fotw.net/flags/de_law.html#1964

#

Basic Rules for the Usage of Flags

1. Meaning of the federal flag

The federal flag represents, like every other national flag, the actual state as a political unit. Therefore the national flag has to be held in high honour.

2. Who is entitled to use flags or banners?

Apart from the obligation to flag on regular general flag days, every national citizen is free to use the flags of the nation, of federal states or of cities, as long as they are no service flags. Furthermore banners in church-colors with or without emblem or combined with colors of associations may be flown. Every private citizen may use outside, or as a desk flag, flags or banners of friendly nations.

3. Time to use flags

Flags must be hoisted at daybreak and taken down at sunset. In special circumstances flags may be used after sunset as long as they are illuminated.

4. When should flags be used?

a) regular, general flag days (for officials, obligation to use flags)
# 1st January: New Year's Day
# 1st May: Labour Day
# 3rd October: German National Holiday [German unification remembrance day]
# November: National Mourning Day (2nd Sunday before 1st Advent Sunday)

b) on special occasions:

1. on state visits of heads of government and heads of state
2. on visits of foreign industrial and mercantile delegations
3. on mourning days of the Nation and of the federal states, as well as local mourning occasions
4. at fairs and exhibitions
5. on religious holidays
6. at local festivals and jubilees
7. at sporting exhibitions, especially those with an international character

5. Order in rank of the federal flag

In national flag displays, the federal service flag, the federal postal flag and the federal flag have the privileged position, when displayed beside other flags (eg. of federal states, cities or associations).

In international flag displays, the national flags are ranked right to left according to the French alphabet. Next the federal service flag, then the federal postal flag or the federal flag; after these, flags of federal states, cities, associations, etcetera. Ranking is always from right to left (as viewed from outside the building). The same rules apply for indoor flag displays.

6. Mourning flag usage

Flags shall be firstly hoisted to the top of the flag pole, then slowly brought down to a "half-mast" position. The bottom side of the flag shall then be at half the height of the mast. Hanging flags, banners and tall format hoisting flags shall not half-masted. A mourning band shall be put on the pole-top of hanging flags, and one mourning band on both the left and right ends of banners' cross-beams, each as long as about one third of the flag's length. On tall format hoisting flags the mourning band shall be fastened to the top of the mast and its length shall not exceed the short side of the flag.

7. Draping with the federal flag

The federal flag or federal service flag must never be used to adorn the podium or desk of a speaker. In this case the federal flag must be displayed either behind the podium or to its right.

8. Usage of national colors.

The national colours shall not be used together with association or company emblems on a flag. Association or company flags shall be used in these cases.

9. Damaged and used up flags

Flags shall always be checked on their condition, which can be improved by periodical cleaning and resting. When they are no longer presentable they must not be used anymore and be replaced by new ones.

Contribution by Dieter Reintjes, translation by Jarig Bakker with corrections by Santiago Dotor, 6 February 2002

Note-2: In a country/culture of strict rules one would not expect to see flags flying on non-flag days, would they?

Debate away, I did enjoy the following German use of a flag the best.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/03/1728717.php

Police in Germany are hunting pranksters who have been sticking
miniature flag portraits of US President George W. Bush into piles of
dog poo in public parks. Josef Oettl, parks administrator for Bayreuth,
said: "This has been going on for about a year now, and there must be
2,000 to 3,000 piles of excrement that have been claimed during that
time."

The series of incidents was originally thought to be some sort of
protest against the US-led invasion ofIraq. And then when it continued
it was thought to be a protest against President George W. Bush's
campaign for re-election. But it is still going on and the police say
they are completely baffled as to who is to blame. "We have sent out
extra patrols to try to catch whoever is doing this in the act," said
police spokesman Reiner Kuechler. "But frankly, we don't know what we
would do if we caught them red handed." Legal experts say there is no
law against using feces as a flag stand and the federal legal experts
say there is no law against using feces as a flag stand and the federal
constitution is vague on the issue

FYI: Flag laws in the United States
http://www.fotw.net/Flags/us-law.html

[Mr_Wizard]

You seriously want me to read all of that?

[kach22i]

Read what you want to.

The ignitor:
http://www.alexanderdavidis.net/interjournal.html

Due to alarming recent world political developments I lately feel a growing urge to lend my photographic talent to political subject matters. Living as a German in the United States today I can't help but see worrisome parallels between current political developments and my own nation's darkest days in history. The following content may not be to everybody's liking. If it is not to yours, please feel free to return to the automotive section. Nothing in the photojournal section is in any way associated with the automotive section.

[kach22i]

Are there any proud German's in the house?

Speak up you experts.

[1967 R50/2]

Having several German friends and having been to Germany many, many times, I can say this comment about the German Flag and German nationalism is quite true.

In fact, I've had this exact conversation about the German flag many times.

The vast majority of Germans feel that showing any kind of nationalistic pride is some kind of lapse back to Nazi-ism. Even Germans who do not were born long after the war feel that way.

Exceptions of course are made for the World Cup and other sporting events Then national pride comes out as it would anywhere else.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by 1967 R50/2
Having several German friends and having been to Germany many, many times, I can say this comment about the German Flag and German nationalism is quite true.

In fact, I've had this exact conversation about the German flag many times.

The vast majority of Germans feel that showing any kind of nationalistic pride is some kind of lapse back to Nazi-ism. Even Germans who do not were born long after the war feel that way.

Exceptions of course are made for the World Cup and other sporting events Then national pride comes out as it would anywhere else.

Thank you, this is what the German speaking people that I know, who lived in Germany have told me several times. I feel sorry for them, perhaps I should just respect the differences and leave it at that. I'm sure they want no pitty.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I tried to reply to your PM but your inbox is full. So here's my reply:

Don't mistake my caustic post in the car photo thread for interest or commentary on the issue you raised. I was merely protesting your diversion of a perfectly benign car-related post to one about politics by making fun of your spelling.

I've come to the conclusion that politics are boring. Neither side is going to change the beliefs of the other. You're wasting your breath, time, and electrons.

[Joeaksa]

My family is part German and I lived there for almost 15 years. Could post quite a bit about it but after your picture of the turd above that was not needed at all on this thread, my feelings are that you need to pull something out:

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Could post quite a bit about it but after your picture

Joeaksa, if I knew how easy it was to offend your sensitive self I would not of shared that image with the forum. Heaven forbid I should step on your prissy little toes like that.

[Rick Lee]

I've lived in Germany twice and go back often. It's not a foreign country at all to me, but their fickleness about showing any national pride drives me nuts, as does their lack of respect shown to their own military.

Germany, whatever you think of their history, is definitely one of those countries with a lot to be proud of. There's probably no household in the developed world without some high-quality, German-made product in it. No one anywhere can say they have no opinion on Germany. I like seeing their flag. I don't even mind seeing their pre-Nazi era flag with the black iron cross and falcon on the white backgroud. They should be proud of their place in the world and especially proud of how far they've come from rock bottom. So many other countries would kill to have Germany's standard of living, organization and low crime. Even the old GDR had by far the highest standard of living in the East Bloc. Germans have higher expecations of themselves than most and they usually fulfill them. I don't know what it will take for them to awake from their national shame slumber. There is a huge difference between patriotism and hyper-nationalism. I don't know why they can't embrace the former without being accused of the latter.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
I don't know why they can't embrace the former without being accused of the latter.

I just thought of something, maybe you can correct me on this. One outcome from the lack of German nationalism (if you wish to call it that) is the emergence of the European Union. No one needs or wants the EU more than the Germans because it helps mask any hint of nationalism on their part.

Here is my thinking:

The English don't even want to use Euro's.

The French are very protective of their culture.

The Germans being the largest European economy have the most to gain from a healthier more collaborative EU.

It's a strong EU, not a strong Germany.

Nothing to fear from a strong EU if you are from Europe, right?

[Rick Lee]

Well, while Germany is definitely the most pro-EU country in the EU, I still can't understand why. I don't think it's to mask their nationalism at all. I really think their last two generations have been raised to think that Germany can do no right and nothing is ever worth fighting for. As part of the EU, Germany is no longer known as having the largest conventional forces in Europe, no longer having the most stable currency in the world, no longer #1 at anything. I can't understand it.

[legion]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Well, while Germany is definitely the most pro-EU country in the EU...

Which I don't get, because I see the EU as France's attempt to finish what Napolean attempted.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Well, while Germany is definitely the most pro-EU country in the EU, I still can't understand why. I don't think it's to mask their nationalism at all. I really think their last two generations have been raised to think that Germany can do no right and nothing is ever worth fighting for. As part of the EU, Germany is no longer known as having the largest conventional forces in Europe, no longer having the most stable currency in the world, no longer #1 at anything. I can't understand it.

I thought you would be the first guy to understand it.

The EU makes Germany Europe. Germany for all practical purposes no longer exist.

It's like a hottest prettiest chick taping her boobs down, not wearing make-up and wearing baggy clothes - the other girls just might stop hating her for being so beautiful.

[Rick Lee]

Yes, but I don't understand why Germany is doing this? It's so self-defeating. No one could claim that Germany would not be part of Europe under any circumstances. Though Germany would get slammed by everyone if they weren't pro-EU. Still, I'd think they're remaining #1 would trump any desire to assuage its neighbors.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by kach22i
Joeaksa, if I knew how easy it was to offend your sensitive self I would not of shared that image with the forum. Heaven forbid I should step on your prissy little toes like that.

You know, I was glad to help when you posted your computer problems but the photo above has nothing to do with this thread. If you want to bash Pres Bush, then start a new thread. If you want to talk about Germany and their people then the photo does not need to be attached.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
You know, I was glad to help when you posted your computer problems but the photo above has nothing to do with this thread. If you want to bash Pres Bush, then start a new thread. If you want to talk about Germany and their people then the photo does not need to be attached.

The flag was planted on German soil, kind of.

The photo (bush-do-do-flag) does have everything to do with this thread, it's an expression which embodies a great number of German's loathing for war and American; nationalism, fascism, imperialism, colonialism, arrogance, ignorance and world domination. All of which every good German is taught to despise in their very own past. The war in Iraq stands as a shinning example, reminiscent of their own mistakes, which they have been taught to never repeat and despise.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by kach22i
The flag was planted on German soil, kind of.

The photo (bush-do-do-flag) does have everything to do with this thread, it's an expression which embodies a great number of German's loathing for war and American; nationalism, fascism, imperialism, colonialism, arrogance, ignorance and world domination. All of which every good German is taught to despise in their very own past. The war in Iraq stands as a shinning example, reminiscent of their own mistakes, which they have been taught to never repeat and despise.

Yea, in your little world that might make sense.

Suppose you want to forget that its now coming out that German spies helped America by handing over Saddam's defence and other classified plans before GW2?

Your comment about the pile of crap being "German soil" is also offensive. Sorry but I still have friends and family over that and that is a slap in the face and was just not needed. You are digging your hole deeper...

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Your comment about the pile of crap being "German soil" is also offensive.

WTF?

Boy oh boy you really are looking to take everything the wrong way. Poop is often called soil, as in; Joeaksa soiled his pants again.



Now if a German Shepard left it, that would seal the deal.

[1967 R50/2]

The reasons Germany has to keep a low profile in the EU, and about their nationalism are really quite clear.

1. Germany has a very bad PR problem. WW2 was so horrific, that people forget that German speaking countries also produced Beethoven, Mozart, Hegel and Sigmund Freud. Coming hard on the heels of WW1, which was terrifying in it's own right, it has permenantly damaged the world's view of Germany and the German's view of themselves.

2. RE THE EU: Remember, 60 years ago most of the EU countries were either occupied by/or at war with a Germany that was espousing their own view of a unified Europe. Of course, the philosophy of the EU is hardly that of "Gross Deutschland". But we are talking PR. If the EU were to have a "German" accent it would never work. There are people in Poland, France, Holland, Greece, etc. who cringe to hear that accent.

4. There is a great deal of collective shame about the war. Even for people who were not alive at the time. Call it the German version of "White Man's Guilt". However, there is no shame in eing a "European". Quite the reverse, it is very forward looking. Being "German" looks back on a past which is not too savory.