I am indeed sorry to hear that Randy.

But while in the services, isnt one paid, vocationally trained, educated, fed, clothed, housed, counselled, doctored and like? Then pensioned off at thrity or fourty on some percenatge of salary and benfits? In return, one might be asked to go off and invade a small country from time to time, and sometimes, ofcourse the locals get upset and shoot back. Occupational hazard?

Its hardly a sacred calling, tho, is it, no matter the public relations tour de force that is the US military? And ofcourse the sombre reverence in which the military is held now seems to extend to firemen and policemen.

That's why cops and firemen have taken to wearing an American flag on their uniforms. I makes you want to go up to them and ask what country do they think they're in? Are you lost, and need returned to your country?

All part and parcel of the militarization of these public servants.

Citizens like Randy and I will continue to fight for the rights of the American people. Individuals like Fastpat has every right to express his or her (Pat is a universal name) opinion and I will continue my efforts to preserve that right.

Pat, I was awarded 3 Medal of Valors. Does that make me a coward? Just today, I rushed to the assistance of one of my cops as he detained five gangsters at gunpoint who had just shot someone. We cleared a house and found someone shot inside and probably saved his (another gangster) life. Does that qualify as a coward? What did you do today?

Pat, why were you discharged from the Army? Was there some type of bitter separation? I am not trying to get into your personal business, but there seems to be a resentment.

David

A "sacred" calling, Stu? Hardly.

An honorable one? You betcha!

It's been posted here before, but I'll go ahead and repeat it, although I'm sure you wouldn;t understand, "For those who serve, freedom has a taste the protected will never know." This is one instance where you seem to be totally clueless.

David, I to have picked up on what seems to be some sort of resentment in Patsy's attitude toward the military. It's quite ironic that someone who claims to have served for over 25 years can be so against that same institution. My guess is that there is something he keeps below the surface that is actually the root cause of all of his hatred.

Randy

Not by invading a foreign nation that had never done a single thing to America.

Quote:

Pat, I was awarded 3 Medal of Valors. Does that make me a coward? Just today, I rushed to the assistance of one of my cops as he detained five gangsters at gunpoint who had just shot someone. We cleared a house and found someone shot inside and probably saved his (another gangster) life. Does that qualify as a coward? What did you do today?

Try not to pat yourself on the back too hard, you'll get tendonitis.

What I did or did not do today is of no concern to you, as this has again turned into a focus on me, not of the subject at hand.

Quote:

Pat, why were you discharged from the Army? Was there some type of bitter separation? I am not trying to get into your personal business, but there seems to be a resentment. David

I wasn't discharged, I am in fact in the Retired Reserve, still subject to call up until I reach mandatory retirement age, which won't be too much longer. My active duty began in 1967 and I have well over 20 years total service, active and reserve.

I have no resentment, you're unable, apparently, to accept that a person just living their life is better, by far, than being a soldier with one exception. That is a citizen that becomes a soldier to defend his neighbors, state, and nation upon attack by an outside nation, or by another government.

That exception isn't even close to being met in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Hey Pat, looks like you're making quite a 'splash' over here tonight.

Randy
Being a carpenter or a doctor or a school teacher is also to pursue an honorable profession.

If you mean that the military proffers a set of experiences that are unique to those that have worked in the military, I will agree with you. But so does every profession.

To infer some higher notion of honor, is largely, just jingoistic claptrap, and it seems, IME, to be almost uniquely existent in the United States. Why is that?

If you really have to ask, stu, you honestly wouldn't understand. really...

Randy

Pat, how can you have served honorably for our great country and be so resentful at the young men and women preserving our exercise of freedom?

I am not talking about whether or not the war in Iraq is right or wrong. However to minimize the valor that some of our best young men and women have displayed in the face of danger is unthinkable. You have obviously studied psychology in school, or a well read in the subject.

I clearly have some problems with my esprit de corps and support for America. Please help me diagnose, treat, and overcome my disabilities.

Semper Fi, David

Genuine question.

And a genuine reply, really.

I'm not being a smart-a$$, it's just how it is. It's the same with the way one chooses their own political leanings, etc. One just believes it. In heart, mind and even in their soul.

It's about the sacrifice one is willing to give, in order to do and accomplish what one believes in. It's a selfless thing, the willful volunteering of one's self to be willing, if called upon, to give everything, even one's own life, in pursuit of thier ideals...the preserving and protecting of freedom.

Fortunately for me, this wasn;t asked of me...yet. Nor has it been asked of people like David, Fintstone, djmcmath, seahawk and even of fastpat. It's not a calling for everyone, only one for a select few. You either get it or you don't. No worries if you don't feel it. But for those who serve, especially today, I think they are deserving of our admiration and respect.

I'm not talking about the prison guards at Abu Grahab and the like. There are bad elements in every facet of life. The people I speak of are the other 90-plus-percent who proudly serve their country.

And no, the terrorists in Iraq, the "freedom fighters", as patsy calls them, they are not those of whom I speak. They are not representative of their country. Iraq has their own military, and these terrorists/insurgents are NOT a part of it.

Ooops, didn't mean to ramble. It's late, time for bed. See y'all.

Randy

It's a black thing you wouldn't understand, it's a blue thing you wouldn't understand, and on and on.

The whole "militarism" thing in nothing short of horseshiit.

If anyone that's never been in the military needs to know I can tell them in terms they'll understand only too well. The money wasted on the military may have denied their children a college education. It may have denied someone a better house, or being able to put better food on the table; things that you, Randy, appear to not understand.

It's a civilian thing, you wouldn't understand, you don't understand, and didn't understand.

It's public service yes? No better or worse or more bound in glory than any other public service. Those who have died in the military have unfortunately paid the ultimate price for pursuing a military career. Some of these people may have died doing something noble. Others may have died because they were simply unlucky or stupid. In the current climate I fail to see how it's not a career choice. If you are defending your country it may be a little different but that's another subject entirely. Guess I just don't get 'it'. That's ok.

I understand that this is what you feel. My question is why is this fervour seemingly unique, in the Western world at least, to the United States?

For example, I know there is a European Porsche guy here who commanded a NATO tank unit, a career soldier. He seemingly doesnt feel the need to advertise that, and only ever, AFAIK, talks in terms of his current profession which is very different.

Why does the US seek to deify its military so?

And just on your other point- when the French, Poles and Czechs resisted an occupying invader in WW2- defending their homelands- they were heroes. I imagine you would take up arms to resist an invader in your homeland, as would I. Why arent the Iraqis resisting an occupying invader in their homeland equally heroic?

Most of the "resisting Iraqis" you refer to are simply not. They are terrorists intentionally mudering their own innocent men, women and children for political gain. The war between the US and Iraq ended years ago. Now we are just trying to protect the defenseless from slaughter.

Our soldiers risk thier lives daily to prevent the murder of these innocent men, women and childern...even though they are not their people...or someone they even know.

There is a clear difference....and I am sure the Poles and Czechs you refer to would say the same thing.

Ahh geez but didn't we (oops, I meant "they") have the best outfits?

Interesting POV. Is the US not currently occupying Iraq? Is the US not currently controlling Iraq's national assets, ie its oil? Is the US not installing its own goverment by means of engineering a "democratic" result which suits it? Will the US be maintaining a military presence in Iraq indefintely? Will the US continue to maintain regionally strategic miliary assets in Iraq in the longer term? What is the politcial gain the "terrorists" seek? Why is the political gain the "terrorists" seek any less legitaimate than the politcial gain the Coalition of the Willing sought when it militarily invaded Iraq and killed '000s of its citizens?

How then, can you call these "terrorists" when they resist an invader within their own homeland? Is it possible for you to contemplate this from a broader perspective?

No. The US Military remains in Iraq at the request of the elected government...and will leave when asked. They are not controlling the oil or funds derived from the oil. It costs the US an incredible amount of money each day to aid Iraq....there is no US financial gain.

They are terrorists because they are not attacking the US, but their own women and children. It is not warlike..or defending anything...other than their own criminal activities..it is simple murder. I don't understand how you cannot see that.

fint

I am not so sure the US would leave if asked, because if they were asked now, the mess would merely intensify the unstable situation by leaving Iraq open to invasion. I think even the current administration understands that.

They will not be asked to leave...so the poiint is moot. But that is their stated position.