Anyone that believes that the administration has not abused its claimed ability to warrantless spy on Americans is in deep denial.

We restrict the government's ability to do that not because it MIGHT abuse the power, but because it WILL. It's only a matter of time.

If you don't get that, you don't get the constitution.

I'm concerned that the "secret courts" and "secret warrants" thing has finally gone far enough to be noticed by most citizens.

Those of you in support of these heinous crimes against America and the American culture ought to have known better, but your moral compasses appear to have been placed in storage, if indeed, you ever had one.

Way back when J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI; his domestic spying was used to find real criminals, but he compiled information on politicians well down the food chain from his Washington office. By the time they were elected, he had information to "sell" to both sides of the aisle; and did so routinely. That was how he built the FBI, and that was how he remained in office no matter who was president.

The same thing is happening now, only it's going much deeper because modern technology enable's huge records repositories and very fast correlation of information. We don't need the government to know this about us, we don't want the government to know this about us, and it's dangerous for the government to know anything about us.

If we don't curb this now, when it's still doable, then we'll all reap the whirlwind in the future.

Rodeo this thread itself shows that if anyone has an empty quiver it is you my friend.

You post a story about phone records being looked at by the government. You title the thread to claim that this is linked to the NSA eavesdropping program and claim the same in the initial post. An interesting claim since the article itself says nothing of the sort and in fact links these phone records to a CIA leak investigation. I was under the impression that leaking classified information was a felony....that's a crime right? And if someone committed a crime, then there might be an investigation including looking at phone records right? And they would probably get warrants for that info for their investigation, right?

Then, when I dare to ask you for proof of your claims you do the classic Rodeo waffle and say "well, I sorta don't have any".

Here's a thought, if you don't have proof then don't start the thread!

You have become something like the monkeys at the zoo who throw their poo around for fun. You and Mul are probably in cages right next to each other, your poo is this NSA thing and Mul's is Sandy Berger.

Get some proof and then come back to me. Any proof. Even an allegation by the reporters in question that they were "warrantlessly searched".

Anything Rodeo.

Anything at all.

I'm waiting.

Dad

Recently, I have concluded that leaking classified information is only a crime to some and to others it is just an error in judgement.

No matter who is monitoring my phone activity, I find it repulsive. Perhaps a bit strong, but nonetheless that is how I feel.

In the not-too-distant future, there will be no place you can go to be truly alone. Someone or something will be tracking you. Ain't technology wonderful?

When do we dress junior in a brown shirt and convince him to turn in Mom and Dad if they disagree with a government policy?

I understand your concern Moneyguy and I share it (believe it or not).

I'm just trying to bring a little reality to this thread and point out that there is no where in this story that the NSA program is even mentioned except for Rodeo's title to the thread. He might as well title it "Aliens intercept reporters phone calls!!" for all the proof he has (which is zero). The article's authors say that their phone records were looked at to determine any calling patterns that might point to the source of the leak, i.e. the criminal.

I don't like the idea of my phone calls being listened to either, but if the police are undertaking an investigation of a felony and have gone through the proper channels then what is the issue exactly?

Dad

I believe you do. Most of us on this BB share similar but not identical views, differing only in detail. You can count the true fruits and nuts on you fingers.

With the proper procedure and a specific "case", I have no problem. Of course I would have a problem if I were one of the suspects!!

And the aliens are really listening to us just as we are listening to them.......SETI rocks!!

At the risk of mentioning it too often, this is what occured in Germany. The Weimar Republic, under presure to do something, outlawed gun ownership except under specific circumstances. It was ignored, of course, by the Brown Shirts, the SS, and the communists. Later, when the Brown Shirts came to power, they used those laws to disarm everyone except themselves.

This will apply at some point to these laws and the people in government. There's a distinct possibility that the next administration, or the one after that, will be far worse than what we have now.

You're really a piece of work defending this travesty.

Federal Source to ABC News: We Know Who You're Calling

This Time It Really is Orwellian

Wiretapping preoccupied Hayden at NSA - His focus was on surveillance at expense of reform agenda

Bush Aide Defends Acts by N.S.A.

Inside Bush's secret spy net -- Should you worry that your phone records are being watched?

You want more, or is this enough, brown shirt?

BOO YAH!

Let me get the logic straight.

First, we create a top secret government program to listen in on the phone calls of Americans without oversight of any kind. Then, we pursue criminally anyone that dares disclose even the existence of this program, let alone its details or scope.

Then, we create another top secret program to compile the single largest database in the history of mankind. Not concerning medicine, or science, or the planet, or alternative energy. A database to determine which Americans are calling who, and when.

Then we guard both the existence and details of this database program, again with criminal sanctions against anyone that dares disclose anything about it.

Now here's the good part.

Then we mock and call names anyone that discusses either program if they do not possess and discuss the secret details that would land them in jail if they did.

Brilliant.

Evil.

Brilliant.

Um no Rodeo, we aren't talking about the NSA Eavesdropping program since that has to do with cell phone calls originating outside the US coming into the US from suspected terror suspects.

This thread is about these ABC reporters who said someone in the gubmint told them that their phone records were being looked at as part of a leak investigation.

You try and try to make the link but it just isn't there.

And I'm still waiting for your proof. Not hot air, proof.

Pat I'm disappointed. You fell into the same trap Rodeo did. You are trying to link stories that aren't linked.

If someone can show me where these ABC reporters are saying that their phones were tapped without a warrant then I will be 100% behind you in your calls for impeachment.

Still waiting guys...

No, we don't have to prove a negative, you need to show that a warrant was obtained and properly served as required by law.

We're waiting. We're not holding our breath.

Did I tell anyone I think defenders of fascism are right up there in the same zone as child rapists?

I just watched about 2 hours of talking heads on this subject, and NOT A SINGLE PERSON suggested , as does Rick, that these call logs were obtained by search warrant, not lifted not from the giant database the admin claims it has every right to build without a warrant.

So, if I am a government investigator and I want to know who James Risen of the NY Times was calling and who was calling him, I can either:

1. Obtain the information from the warrantless NSA database, or

2. Go to the justice Department, have them draw up maybe hundreds of applications for 4th amendment warrants, each supported by a detailed affidavit establishing probable cause that a crime was committed. Then, I and the US Attorney go before a federal judge for each warrant, and be prepared to brief and argue why such warrants, against Risen and scores of other journalists, CIA Agents, and government employees, are not violative of the first amendment, a breach of national security, or otherwise improper under the law.

According to Rick, it's plain foolish to assume the admin would chose option No. 1 over option 2.

Sure it is. sure it is.

If you are an American that believes in freedom, you would not make such absurd arguments.

And you will oppose warrantless government intrusion into your life with all of your being.

The report is still murky, but it's pretty clear at this point that no warrants were involved in the government tracing of these reporter's (and others') phone calls.

It appears that the phone companies were served with "NSA letters," which require compliance in turning over records, and which punish by imprisonment telling anyone, even a court, that you have been served with an NSA letter.

Somebody pinch me. This can't be real. Not here. Not in America.


FBI Acknowledges: Journalists Phone Records are Fair Game

May 15, 2006 7:18 PM
Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report:

The FBI acknowledged late Monday that it is increasingly seeking reporters' phone records in leak investigations.

"It used to be very hard and complicated to do this, but it no longer is in the Bush administration," said a senior federal official.

The acknowledgement followed our blotter item that ABC News reporters had been warned by a federal source that the government knew who we were calling.

The official said our blotter item was wrong to suggest that ABC News phone calls were being "tracked."

"Think of it more as backtracking," said a senior federal official.

But FBI officials did not deny that phone records of ABC News, the New York Times and the Washington Post had been sought as part of a investigation of leaks at the CIA.

In a statement, the FBI press office said its leak investigations begin with the examination of government phone records.

"The FBI will take logical investigative steps to determine if a criminal act was committed by a government employee by the unauthorized release of classified information," the statement said.

Officials say that means that phone records of reporters will be sought if government records are not sufficient.

Officials say the FBI makes extensive use of a new provision of the Patriot Act which allows agents to seek information with what are called National Security Letters (NSL).

The NSLs are a version of an administrative subpoena and are not signed by a judge. Under the law, a phone company receiving a NSL for phone records must provide them and may not divulge to the customer that the records have been given to the government.

Sounds to me like you are hiding something. What exactly is it that you are afraid of getting caught doing?

Um AGAIN please point to where the law was broken.

Please point to where this story has ANYTHING to do with the NSA eavesdropping program.

Please point to where this action was not taken completely legally under the provisions of the Patriot Act.

All you have are smoke and mirrors Rodeo and those of us with half a brain can see through it.


And Pat, yes you do have to prove a negative because YOU are the ones making the idiotic conspiracy theory tin foil hat accusations.

Sounds to me like you have no clue about what goes into those things we call liberty and freedom.

Rodeo, I know the link is from a source you will deride, but read both pages of the article and see what you think.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/206zbpvd.asp

So, where are the federal court injunctions or rulings? If these activities are illegal, why aren't we reading about successful challenges or cases accepted by the Supreme Court?