The Wild West wasn't wild at all...

[fastpat]

It's a commonly held myth that the Western states, when government was largely non-existent, was wild and uncontrolled except by armed gangs and bad men.

That is plainly not true at all, in fact, exactly the opposite was true. The most dangerous places in America were where the government was the largest, and this is true today.

What is clear is that we Americans need to be rid of at least the federal government as soon as possible, and then reduce state governments radically.

References:
1. Law for the Elephant: Property and Social Behavior on the Overland Trail by John Reid, ca. 1996.

2. An American Experiment in Anarcho-Capitalism: The NOT so Wild, Wild West (pdf download) by Terry Anderson and P. J. Hill, the department of Economics, Montana State niversity.

[72doug2,2S]

Southern succession will rise again? Count me in.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by 72doug2,2S
Southern succession will rise again? Count me in.

Secession is possible on many levels; economic, government, and others. One of the first things we of the South need to do is to get rid of all the US government military installations and other agencies as soon as possible.

We don't need them, they steal from the citizenry, and bring in negative elements. One need only visit areas just off most any Army base to see what I mean.

[72doug2,2S]

My country Virginia is in.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by 72doug2,2S
My country Virginia is in.

It might be a useful exercise to speculate which states, in our opinion, could reasonably expected to secede if it comes to that.

South Carolina, yes. North Carolina, maybe; and so on.

[Joeaksa]

You know, if you took the time you spend on the internet trying to prove that it would be better without any govt, and spent it towards getting some honest politicians in office, some good might come out of it.

We are never going to abolish the government. It aint gonna happen so how about working towards something that has a chance of working?

[Hugh R]

If I remember correctly, Texas is the only state that can secede from the US with a simple vote of its population. It was part of the deal of it joining the US.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
You know, if you took the time you spend on the internet trying to prove that it would be better without any govt, and spent it towards getting some honest politicians in office, some good might come out of it.

We are never going to abolish the government. It aint gonna happen so how about working towards something that has a chance of working?

Joe, the fact that there is only one politician in the US congress today that is close to honest and does demand Constitutional government, Congressman Ron Paul, puts lie to your wish. Additionally, you don't want smaller government in any case. When you support a continuance of a huge portion of government in one area, you are in fact supporting it all.

Originally posted by Hugh RIf I remember correctly, Texas is the only state that can secede from the US with a simple vote of its population. It was part of the deal of it joining the US.

Texas' entry into the Union did contain that stipulation, among other things involving debt incurred while they were an independent country. In fact, any state has that lawful power, granted by implication in the Declaration of Independence and by law in the 10th Amendment.

We have the example of how the federal government disregarded the Constitution in 1861, and acts unConstitutionally often today, but the right of secession is the law still.

[nostatic]

what kind of economy you got there in SC?

I'd gladly back a CA sucession. We'll pick up Baja in the deal. All that beachfront property. All that cheap labor. And the 5th largest economy in the world.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by nostatic
what kind of economy you got there in SC?

BMW North America, Michelin's world headquarters, and a bunch more have located here in the upstate SC area because we have a pro-business climate. On the coast, we have one of the finest ports in the country, we're mid-way between Florida and the middle Atlantic states, so pretty good for transportation, even if we decide to tear up I-95.

I'd gladly back a CA sucession. We'll pick up Baja in the deal. All that beachfront property. All that cheap labor. And the 5th largest economy in the world.

And I do and would respect your right to self government. Let's work on it.

[Moneyguy1]

Oh, I don't know...How did this morph from "The Wild West wasn't wild" to secession (pat's FAVORITE topic)?

I think you might want to rethink the "wild" in the west. Granted, pat, you may know the history of the Southeast, but that seems to be where it ends. Right or wrong, there were a considerable of individuals caught up in land wars, battles with the Ute, the Apache, and other tribal groups (and I do NOT take sides on the "right" or "wrong" actions of either side, there is room for volumes on that topic). The very fact that until the end of the 19th century the population was quite sparse (at one time Tombstone was the largest City in the Southwest) led to a type of lawlessness "Sheriff didn't see it, we didn't do it".

Getting rid of government? Curtailing, yes, but eliminating it altogether? You like the nice roads for your Porsche? You like the security offered by a federal armed force? Willing to become a citizen soldier, spending part of your time securing the borders of SC? In this all too uncertain world, the lack of a unified fighting force would leave this country and the individual states open for opportunistic nations. The same with state government. Reduction, yes. Local government? You prepared to dig holes to bury your garbage? Willing to give up that low slung go-buggy for something that will navigate over unpaved terrain? Ready to dig your own well for water? Generate your own power?

I am all for minimal intrusion of government at all levels, but I am convinced there are jobs that can collectively be done at far less effort if not cost by some form of central operation.

You have some fine companies in SC. Been there, seen them. How much of the materials they use come from outside the state on federally constructed roads? How many products made are transported to other states on those same roads? What would be the effect on cost if different states initiated tariffs on goods coming and going?

Our government is far from perfect, and it has become bloated, especially over the past five years or so. However, with some work and the efforts of real dedicated Activists..not the far extremes or the ever loyal "true believers", we may be able to return sanity and forge ahead.

[Eric 951]

Willing to become a citizen soldier, spending part of your time securing the borders of SC?

Well of course he is. Haven't you seen his photos? So long as the militia uniform is a camo jacket and sweatpants, he is good to go.


Local government? You prepared to dig holes to bury your garbage? Willing to give up that low slung go-buggy for something that will navigate over unpaved terrain? Ready to dig your own well for water? Generate your own power?

Shhh. The practicality of day-to-day operations isn't part of the rhetoric. Since all sec-heads know it is a pipe dream, there is no need to progress beyond the blow-hard portion of the argument and delve into details such as power, water, road maintenance, etc. etc. having to plan for such realities destroys the fantasy of an independent SC.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Oh, I don't know...How did this morph from "The Wild West wasn't wild" to secession (pat's FAVORITE topic)?

I think you might want to rethink the "wild" in the west. Granted, pat, you may know the history of the Southeast, but that seems to be where it ends. Right or wrong, there were a considerable of individuals caught up in land wars, battles with the Ute, the Apache, and other tribal groups (and I do NOT take sides on the "right" or "wrong" actions of either side, there is room for volumes on that topic). The very fact that until the end of the 19th century the population was quite sparse (at one time Tombstone was the largest City in the Southwest) led to a type of lawlessness "Sheriff didn't see it, we didn't do it".

Getting rid of government? Curtailing, yes, but eliminating it altogether? You like the nice roads for your Porsche? You like the security offered by a federal armed force? Willing to become a citizen soldier, spending part of your time securing the borders of SC? In this all too uncertain world, the lack of a unified fighting force would leave this country and the individual states open for opportunistic nations. The same with state government. Reduction, yes. Local government? You prepared to dig holes to bury your garbage? Willing to give up that low slung go-buggy for something that will navigate over unpaved terrain? Ready to dig your own well for water? Generate your own power?

I am all for minimal intrusion of government at all levels, but I am convinced there are jobs that can collectively be done at far less effort if not cost by some form of central operation.

You have some fine companies in SC. Been there, seen them. How much of the materials they use come from outside the state on federally constructed roads? How many products made are transported to other states on those same roads? What would be the effect on cost if different states initiated tariffs on goods coming and going?

Our government is far from perfect, and it has become bloated, especially over the past five years or so. However, with some work and the efforts of real dedicated Activists..not the far extremes or the ever loyal "true believers", we may be able to return sanity and forge ahead.

Just taking one issue, highways, I think I can knock this down.

First, almost all highways are constructed by private companies, there are a few states that actually build roads but they're so inefficient that only a truly corrupt state continues the practice. The federal government, to my knowledge, builds no roads at all,with the possible exception of military installations.

What the federal government does, of course, is take money from us all and then builds roads on a political basis, maintenance is scattered around in the same way. Of course the federal bureacracy, the huge when compared to private industry, skims funds off the top to pay for itself, and a substantial portion of the cost of the roads go into political campaign war chests to garner contracts for the road building for private contractors. There is no need, at all, for the state, particularly at the federal level, to build any road at all. The Constitution allows the federal government to build roads for the use of the Post Office, which is now (wink-wink) been privatized itself. The building of post road power has been severed by that privatization, and the fact that the states have built roads, long ago in most cases, that go where they're needed, when they're needed.

We could get into the abuse of emminent domain that enabled the Interstate Highway System's (formerly the National Defense Highway System, modeled on Hitler's Autobahn's) which ruined thousands of individual private property landholders, but that's for another time.

The long and short of it is that we absolutely do not need government to build roads.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Eric 951
Willing to become a citizen soldier, spending part of your time securing the borders of SC?

Well of course he is. Haven't you seen his photos? So long as the militia uniform is a camo jacket and sweatpants, he is good to go.


Local government? You prepared to dig holes to bury your garbage?

My garbage service is private. I have a choice of three services if the one I hired fails to provide good service, which is as it should be. The need for monopoly garbage collection by a government entity or one contracted to government is a myth, continually fanned by garbage union's and garbage collection corporations such as Browning Ferris.

Willing to give up that low slung go-buggy for something that will navigate over unpaved terrain?

Answered above.

Ready to dig your own well for water?

While I could do that, I buy water from a private co-op, it's completely non-government. Further, when it enters contests to determine water quality, yes they do these things, it's wins year after year.

Generate your own power?

You have government electrical power, you poor baby. Fortunately, I've never had to engage government run power systems, but those that have, or those that have substantial government involvement in their power industry have felt the results, see California of just a few years ago for an example.

So, all of your examples have fallen rather flat, want to try again, or are you done?

[Tervuren]

Pat - one of the things you do not factor in - is that the people in the West where very different from the people of today. You could not just move to a government like was enacted out there, and have things be fine.

It was a harsh change to leave everything and move into unused territory - the people who made it - where above the average.

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by fastpat
[.

So, all of your examples have fallen rather flat, want to try again, or are you done? [/B]

I guarantee that you will never see an independent SC in your lifetime.

The notion is ludicrous fantasy, but if it makes you happy, dream away.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Tervuren
Pat - one of the things you do not factor in - is that the people in the West where very different from the people of today. You could not just move to a government like was enacted out there, and have things be fine.

It was a harsh change to leave everything and move into unused territory - the people who made it - where above the average.

While I'd agree that these folks met hard conditions head on, what I'm talking about is removing government from overhead. The useless leaches who don't really produce much of anything, but suck up huge resources from Americans.

We really don't need the federal government at all. It takes huge amounts of capital and expends it on building power bases for itself such as a military sized to oppose another ruthless super power, which of course does not and is unlikely to ever exist.

The huge corporate wefare system saps an unbelievably large amount of private treasure as well. The control of sugar prices is yet another example of agricultural welfare that is costing Americans billions of dollars, and lining the pockets of unscrupulous politicians and corporate farmers. Don't get me started on Archer Daniels Midland, whose existence depends solely on federal controls.

This all must die, and the quicker, the better for all.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Eric 951
I guarantee that you will never see an independent SC in your lifetime.

The notion is ludicrous fantasy, but if it makes you happy, dream away.

We'll see about that, won't we.

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by fastpat
We'll see about that, won't we.

Nah. It is a fact.

[911skb]

Break out your Blue's and Grey's folks, its round two...ding ding ding

(sorry I couldn't resist)